logo
Welcome Guest! To enable all features please Login or Register.

Notification

Icon
Error

7 Pages123>»
richard
#1 Posted : 06 August 2012 12:02:49(UTC)
Richard

Rank: Administration

Groups: Registered, Administrators
Joined: 16/04/2012(UTC)
Posts: 3,035
United Kingdom
Location: Bradford

Thanks: 97 times
Was thanked: 306 time(s) in 255 post(s)
Over the several weeks since our Harrogate conference, many thousands of words have been written, on the back of much thinking. As a result, I am in a position to draft a first attempt at a list of six coherent demands. Without further ado, I offer the following ...



Read here...

http://www.eureferendum....ogview.aspx?blogno=83014
jackanori
#2 Posted : 06 August 2012 12:45:04(UTC)
jackanori

Rank: Advanced Member

Groups: Registered
Joined: 17/07/2012(UTC)
Posts: 82
United Kingdom
Location: Ilminster

Thanks: 1 times
Was thanked: 14 time(s) in 10 post(s)
I'd suggest the following minor tweeks to paragraph 2.

the fundamental building blocks of our democracy shall be the historic counties (or other local units as may be defined), which shall be sovereign bodies exercising under the control of their peoples all powers of legislation, taxation and administration not specifically granted by the people to national governments;

D W Buxton
#3 Posted : 06 August 2012 12:46:37(UTC)
D W Buxton

Rank: Advanced Member

Groups: Registered
Joined: 18/07/2012(UTC)
Posts: 74

Thanks: 5 times
Was thanked: 8 time(s) in 7 post(s)
It seems to be an excellent start, concise and easily understood. Too many would have complicated things far too much. To get these agreed would be great, extras should wait until the success of this start.
D W Buxton
#4 Posted : 06 August 2012 12:48:01(UTC)
D W Buxton

Rank: Advanced Member

Groups: Registered
Joined: 18/07/2012(UTC)
Posts: 74

Thanks: 5 times
Was thanked: 8 time(s) in 7 post(s)
It seems to be an excellent start, concise and easily understood. Too many would have complicated things far too much. To get these agreed would be great, extras should wait until the success of this start.
Ravenscar
#5 Posted : 06 August 2012 12:54:37(UTC)
Ravenscar

Rank: Advanced Member

Groups: Registered
Joined: 17/07/2012(UTC)
Posts: 921
Location: The North

Thanks: 113 times
Was thanked: 134 time(s) in 91 post(s)
On a quick reading and then one or two more, my first impression is of positively, affirmatively, intellectually sound thinking.

As you say Doc, the main points must be basic [the devil is always in the detail] thus, making them easy to comprehend for everyman/woman.

Synopsis,
Sovereignty, localism, separation of powers, British jurisdiction will be supreme, no international treaties will be able to countermand the former , fiscal and monetary power to reside with - "the people" yearly budget supervision and approval subject to a vote by the people.

= Referism.

Yup.
Archy
#6 Posted : 06 August 2012 12:57:50(UTC)
Archy

Rank: Member

Groups: Registered
Joined: 17/07/2012(UTC)
Posts: 18
United Kingdom
Location: Midlands

Was thanked: 1 time(s) in 1 post(s)
Do you think that six really simple headings could be devised so that the demands can be clearly conveyed such as: An elected Prime Minister: Public permission for budgets: etc?
jackanori
#7 Posted : 06 August 2012 13:09:18(UTC)
jackanori

Rank: Advanced Member

Groups: Registered
Joined: 17/07/2012(UTC)
Posts: 82
United Kingdom
Location: Ilminster

Thanks: 1 times
Was thanked: 14 time(s) in 10 post(s)
Yes there's nothing in that set of demands that I don't agree with.

On another note, the blog post you have linked to, mirrors my thoughts on the European "elephant in the room":

Quote:
The Harrogate Agenda is a Trojan Horse, but a rather curious, transparent one. It’s payload, hidden in plain view, is that acceptance of it’s demands automatically requires the dismantling of the EU in it’s current form. We can therefore expect intense opposition, as we can be sure that politicians, ours and those of the EU, and our EU masters will realise that. However if the people (demos) understand and agree with our demands then, as Richard is fond of reminding us, there are more of us than there are of them.


However it occurs to me that it might be worthwhile to include a seventh demand - something along the lines of

7. The Government shall renegotiate our relationship with the European Union by invoking 50 of the Lisbon Treaty if necessary, so as to be able to give full effect to the preceeding six demands.

I'm not sure it's essential, just a thought.
richard
#8 Posted : 06 August 2012 13:41:19(UTC)
Richard

Rank: Administration

Groups: Registered, Administrators
Joined: 16/04/2012(UTC)
Posts: 3,035
United Kingdom
Location: Bradford

Thanks: 97 times
Was thanked: 306 time(s) in 255 post(s)
Originally Posted by: jackanori Go to Quoted Post
I'd suggest the following minor tweeks to paragraph 2.

the fundamental building blocks of our democracy shall be the historic counties (or other local units as may be defined), which shall be sovereign bodies exercising under the control of their peoples all powers of legislation, taxation and administration not specifically granted by the people to national governments;





I wasn't sure about "historic". Things change, and the best bet - I thought - was to leave it up to the people to decide on their own boundaries. As for "sovereign" bodies, they can't be if the people are sovereign. Thus, I thought it more appropriate to call them constitutional bodies, to avoid confusion. Their powers, responsibilities, etc, are defined by constitution, approved by referendums, rather than the statutory bodies that they are now.

richard
#9 Posted : 06 August 2012 13:44:06(UTC)
Richard

Rank: Administration

Groups: Registered, Administrators
Joined: 16/04/2012(UTC)
Posts: 3,035
United Kingdom
Location: Bradford

Thanks: 97 times
Was thanked: 306 time(s) in 255 post(s)
Originally Posted by: jackanori Go to Quoted Post
Yes there's nothing in that set of demands that I don't agree with.

On another note, the blog post you have linked to, mirrors my thoughts on the European "elephant in the room":

Quote:
The Harrogate Agenda is a Trojan Horse, but a rather curious, transparent one. It’s payload, hidden in plain view, is that acceptance of it’s demands automatically requires the dismantling of the EU in it’s current form. We can therefore expect intense opposition, as we can be sure that politicians, ours and those of the EU, and our EU masters will realise that. However if the people (demos) understand and agree with our demands then, as Richard is fond of reminding us, there are more of us than there are of them.


However it occurs to me that it might be worthwhile to include a seventh demand - something along the lines of

7. The Government shall renegotiate our relationship with the European Union by invoking 50 of the Lisbon Treaty if necessary, so as to be able to give full effect to the preceeding six demands.

I'm not sure it's essential, just a thought.




Demand no 4., gives the power to require the government to pull out of the EU treaties. Significantly, it also gives power to approve any new relationship - which would be determined by way of a treaty between the four states (England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland) and the EU.
David Phipps
#10 Posted : 06 August 2012 13:49:18(UTC)
David Phipps

Rank: Advanced Member

Groups: Registered
Joined: 17/07/2012(UTC)
Posts: 64
United Kingdom
Location: Witney

Was thanked: 3 time(s) in 3 post(s)
That may be a 'first draft' Richard, but I think all congratulations are due to you for succinctly summarizing what are, in fact, the main demands. Those 6 points are ones that I can endorse and support.

It is to be hoped that the majority of Harrogate attendees will concur.

richard
#11 Posted : 06 August 2012 14:01:08(UTC)
Richard

Rank: Administration

Groups: Registered, Administrators
Joined: 16/04/2012(UTC)
Posts: 3,035
United Kingdom
Location: Bradford

Thanks: 97 times
Was thanked: 306 time(s) in 255 post(s)
Originally Posted by: David Phipps Go to Quoted Post
That may be a 'first draft' Richard, but I think all congratulations are due to you for succinctly summarizing what are, in fact, the main demands. Those 6 points are ones that I can endorse and support.

It is to be hoped that the majority of Harrogate attendees will concur.




BigGrin BigGrin BigGrin




tomrat247
#12 Posted : 06 August 2012 14:02:25(UTC)
tomrat247

Rank: Advanced Member

Groups: Registered
Joined: 17/07/2012(UTC)
Posts: 18
United Kingdom
Location: Leeds

Originally Posted by: jackanori Go to Quoted Post
I'd suggest the following minor tweeks to paragraph 2.

the fundamental building blocks of our democracy shall be the historic counties (or other local units as may be defined), which shall be sovereign bodies exercising under the control of their peoples all powers of legislation, taxation and administration not specifically granted by the people to national governments;



Seems a little precise to me - how about we let people decide how they want to associate themselves into "counties"? If they want bigger groups or smaller, send multiple mps via AV or single ones based on FPTP then so be it; long as it doesn't contravene on the national powers granted to parliament then anything goes.
TheBoilingFrog
#13 Posted : 06 August 2012 14:03:22(UTC)
TheBoilingFrog

Rank: Advanced Member

Groups: Registered
Joined: 17/07/2012(UTC)
Posts: 379
United Kingdom
Location: Didcot

Thanks: 23 times
Was thanked: 27 time(s) in 24 post(s)
Firstly apologises for not participating fully in the recent debates, I've been waylaid on other matters. I agree with much of the demands, I wondered if they could be condensed into something more 'soundbite-ish' with the relevant explanation attached. For example:

2. Local taxes for local issues

3. An elected PM

5. Annual approval of Government budgets

I can't think of examples for the other 3 points as yet, but we need to keep it simple.
jackanori
#14 Posted : 06 August 2012 14:09:59(UTC)
jackanori

Rank: Advanced Member

Groups: Registered
Joined: 17/07/2012(UTC)
Posts: 82
United Kingdom
Location: Ilminster

Thanks: 1 times
Was thanked: 14 time(s) in 10 post(s)
Originally Posted by: richard Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: jackanori Go to Quoted Post
I'd suggest the following minor tweeks to paragraph 2.

the fundamental building blocks of our democracy shall be the historic counties (or other local units as may be defined), which shall be sovereign bodies exercising under the control of their peoples all powers of legislation, taxation and administration not specifically granted by the people to national governments;





I wasn't sure about "historic". Things change, and the best bet - I thought - was to leave it up to the people to decide on their own boundaries. As for "sovereign" bodies, they can't be if the people are sovereign. Thus, I thought it more appropriate to call them constitutional bodies, to avoid confusion. Their powers, responsibilities, etc, are defined by constitution, approved by referendums, rather than the statutory bodies that they are now.



I think it is worthwhile including historic, because it may be the case that people who live in "modern" counties such as Cumbria may not feel much attachment to them but may be more excited by the idea of living in their old county of Cumberland or Westmorland again. Since 1974 local government in this country has been chopped and changed and renamed, and reconfigured numerous times. Announcing that we're going back to how things used to be differentiates us from the current crop of politicians and bureaucrats who have no sense of history and seem to revel in wrecking anything in this country that may have some history and thus the allegiance of peoples' affections. For those people who don't care about things, the inclusion of "historic" likely won't make any difference. In the end you're right that each county would be defined by the people living within it, but in the meantime it makes a nice selling point.

When I typed in the word sovereignty your object did occur to me. I just thought that constitutional sounded not quite right grammatically. What does constitutional mean - as opposed to unconstitutional. Perhaps "constitutionally defined" might be the more accurate term of what we're trying to arrive at.


mmatis
#15 Posted : 06 August 2012 14:11:27(UTC)
mmatis

Rank: Advanced Member

Groups: Registered
Joined: 17/07/2012(UTC)
Posts: 433
Man
United States
Location: Cocoa, Florida

Thanks: 84 times
Was thanked: 35 time(s) in 26 post(s)
Originally Posted by: jackanori Go to Quoted Post
Yes there's nothing in that set of demands that I don't agree with.

On another note, the blog post you have linked to, mirrors my thoughts on the European "elephant in the room":

Quote:
The Harrogate Agenda is a Trojan Horse...
<snip>
However if the people (demos) understand and agree with our demands then, as Richard is fond of reminding us, there are more of us than there are of them.

<snip>

The "more of us than there are of them" only works if they are unwilling to use overwhelming weapon superiority against you. I give you this:

http://smallwarsjournal.com/jrnl/art/full-spectrum-operations-in-the-homeland-a-%E2%80%9Cvision%E2%80%9D-of-the-future

as an example of the treason within the US government. Whether the military would comply or not may be in question, but their intent is clearly not.
jackanori
#16 Posted : 06 August 2012 14:13:11(UTC)
jackanori

Rank: Advanced Member

Groups: Registered
Joined: 17/07/2012(UTC)
Posts: 82
United Kingdom
Location: Ilminster

Thanks: 1 times
Was thanked: 14 time(s) in 10 post(s)
Originally Posted by: TheBoilingFrog Go to Quoted Post
Firstly apologises for not participating fully in the recent debates, I've been waylaid on other matters. I agree with much of the demands, I wondered if they could be condensed into something more 'soundbite-ish' with the relevant explanation attached. For example:

2. Local taxes for local issues

3. An elected PM

5. Annual approval of Government budgets

I can't think of examples for the other 3 points as yet, but we need to keep it simple.



I can't agree with your suggestion of condensing these demands into soundbites. I'd like to think that we are creating something historic here and it needs to look and read nicely. There is a place for soundbites - generally on a TV screen or coming over the speaker on the radio - not in document that we are putting our signatures to.
TheBoilingFrog
#17 Posted : 06 August 2012 14:21:40(UTC)
TheBoilingFrog

Rank: Advanced Member

Groups: Registered
Joined: 17/07/2012(UTC)
Posts: 379
United Kingdom
Location: Didcot

Thanks: 23 times
Was thanked: 27 time(s) in 24 post(s)
Originally Posted by: jackanori Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: TheBoilingFrog Go to Quoted Post
Firstly apologises for not participating fully in the recent debates, I've been waylaid on other matters. I agree with much of the demands, I wondered if they could be condensed into something more 'soundbite-ish' with the relevant explanation attached. For example:

2. Local taxes for local issues

3. An elected PM

5. Annual approval of Government budgets

I can't think of examples for the other 3 points as yet, but we need to keep it simple.



I can't agree with your suggestion of condensing these demands into soundbites. I'd like to think that we are creating something historic here and it needs to look and read nicely. There is a place for soundbites - generally on a TV screen or coming over the speaker on the radio - not in document that we are putting our signatures to.



We are as you say trying to create something historic, but we also need to pass the 'pub test' if we are to get anywhere. The Chartists' demands were simple and to the point - we need to do the same. We can leave the detail till afterwards, but we need simple and easy to understand bullet points to make progress.

For example a major point is separation of powers. If you were to walk into a pub and argue should Cameron be directly elected as PM you would get a far more positive response than trying to discuss 'separation of powers' The outcome of either is precisely the same, how it's worded is the key
richard
#18 Posted : 06 August 2012 14:34:11(UTC)
Richard

Rank: Administration

Groups: Registered, Administrators
Joined: 16/04/2012(UTC)
Posts: 3,035
United Kingdom
Location: Bradford

Thanks: 97 times
Was thanked: 306 time(s) in 255 post(s)
Originally Posted by: Archy Go to Quoted Post
Do you think that six really simple headings could be devised so that the demands can be clearly conveyed such as: An elected Prime Minister: Public permission for budgets: etc?



Done

John Page
#19 Posted : 06 August 2012 14:59:22(UTC)
John Page

Rank: Advanced Member

Groups: Registered
Joined: 30/07/2012(UTC)
Posts: 55
Man
United Kingdom

Thanks: 4 times
Was thanked: 2 time(s) in 2 post(s)
What a shame. All that, and it dribbled away into the unrealistic vision of a continually activist, participatory democracy.
J A King
#20 Posted : 06 August 2012 15:00:53(UTC)
J A King

Rank: Advanced Member

Groups: Registered
Joined: 17/07/2012(UTC)
Posts: 77
United Kingdom
Location: Cumbria

Thanks: 2 times
Was thanked: 5 time(s) in 5 post(s)
It certainly is a good start, and with that layout, its not so hard to grasp the ideas. - I did have further questions on the referism thing, like splitting tax to provide funding for a certain thing ie road tax pays for roads only, NI for welfare, Income tax for essentials (police, fire, etc)
but item 5 covers nicely, no money and no spending without permission.

well I think i understand it, and I am no where near the sharpest knife in the drawer.
Users browsing this topic
Guest
7 Pages123>»
Forum Jump  
You cannot post new topics in this forum.
You cannot reply to topics in this forum.
You cannot delete your posts in this forum.
You cannot edit your posts in this forum.
You cannot create polls in this forum.
You cannot vote in polls in this forum.

Powered by YAF 1.9.6.1 | YAF © 2003-2013, Yet Another Forum.NET
This page was generated in 0.494 seconds.