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richard
#1 Posted : 02 February 2013 12:06:50(UTC)
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A bizarrely complacent Nigel (now Lord) Lawson told the Financial Times last week that David Cameron's plan to negotiate a better deal with Europe was likely to fail and the British people would see through any "make believe" new settlement.

Quite reasonably, he observes that other EU member states would not reopen treaties because they feared that would lead to a fragmentation of the club. They would never reverse the EU's "theology" of ever closer union, he says.

But then Lawson goes on to express a belief that the British public would not fall for a minimal renegotiation of terms, similar to the limited concessions won by Harold Wilson before the 1975 referendum. "The British public is much more sceptical", he says. "I don't think they're going to be taken in by Wilsonian make-believe".

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comet
#2 Posted : 02 February 2013 12:46:14(UTC)
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I definitely believe that Heath, and probably Wilson, thought the country was becoming ungovernable and in relentless decline, and being absorbed into 'Europe' would solve the problems by a sort of osmosis. They certainly didn't have any other answers.

I don't have much faith in a referendum being offered 'to settle the issue' either, much less a referendum with a level playing field called by a government which wants to stay in. We've already seen a carpet bombing campaign of scare stories.

I have an idea this will not be decided by arguments over fax democracy in Norway and 3 million jobs supposedly dependent on the EU; that is any of the eurosceptic/europhile sparring, although that's not unimportant, it will be decided by something blindside; Greece descending into anarchy, a scandal involving someone like Rumpy Pumpy, riots caused by excessive immigration, attempts to shore up the Euro eventually failing or events somewhere else in the world. Something which makes it impossible to stay in the EU.


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Ravenscar
#3 Posted : 02 February 2013 13:20:14(UTC)
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I'll have to think about it - the idea of a referendum does not appeal, Cameron plays loose and fast - we need an existential crisis in the EZ - the MSM have stopped showing Athenians scavenging and blaring on Spanish youth unemployment figures.

Lord and heavens above, do we need a strategy though.

We, are still too divided and they [TPTB] have us just where they want us and though I have the utmost respect for Lord Lawson - not least for his stand out anti green agenda stance - he is maybe though, a little over optimistic on the solidity of British-EU-scepticism.


It still points to reform of the electoral system [small matter] and Referism - does it not Richard?
richard
#4 Posted : 02 February 2013 13:23:55(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Ravenscar Go to Quoted Post
I'll have to think about it - the idea of a referendum does not appeal, Cameron plays loose and fast - we need an existential crisis in the EZ - the MSM have stopped showing Athenians scavenging and blaring on Spanish youth unemployment figures.

Lord and heavens above, do we need a strategy though.

We, are still too divided and they [TPTB] have us just where they want us and though I have the utmost respect for Lord Lawson - not least for his stand out anti green agenda stance - he is maybe though, a little over optimistic on the solidity of British-EU-scepticism.


It still points to reform of the electoral system [small matter] and Referism - does it not Richard?



Referism, absorbed into the Harrogate Agenda, is certainly in my view, a key part of the fight. I think I have said before, I have no particular interest in the idea of repatriating powers from Brussels, if all that happens is that they go to officials in Whitehall (or even our town halls) under the nominal control of elected representatives.

mmatis
#5 Posted : 02 February 2013 13:39:58(UTC)
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You say:
Quote:
"There is our task: to put different words on that beach. "

If that is the task, those words must be short, sweet, and memorable. I would recommend that you go William Wallace:

Freedom!

Yes, it sounds hokey. But not anywhere as much so as what Your Betters spout. And quite frankly, that IS what you seek. Just as his fictionalized character in Braveheart did. I know not how accurate the story may be, nor does it matter. Not any more than the Euroheaven story matters. It is what you can sell that does. And an array of "what could be" if your nation was OUTSIDE the EU, reasonably fleshed out and presented credibly, can win hearts, minds, and votes. Especially if things are not going well within.

Suggestion: What is the MOST hated EU policy/regulation from your country's perspective? Pick the prime driving EU regulation for same and put it out for the world to see. Then propose what should be instead. Put enough flesh in what you propose to show that it is indeed credible, but don't do so much that EVERYONE can find something to fault in it. For this, you need someone who has experience writing regulations, whether governmental, corporate, or social. Once you have done that internally, put it out as you did the Harrogate Agenda for wider review. Strongly resist the urge to go way down in the details, just as you have done for Harrogate. But put enough in to show that the proposal is credible, and to contrast to the current intolerable situation.

Once you have done that for the WORST of the EU, move on to the next-most hated policy/regulation and do the same thing. Once you have got at least three such fleshed out and accepted to the extent that you currently are with Harrogate, take it to a larger audience. You will, of course, be attacked by the Media initially. If you can get through them, you will then be attacked by your government. And if they can't stop you, then the EU machine will be cranked up to full power in an intimidation exercise similar to what Greece has been through. But at the start, neither your government nor the EU will waste their time on you, which gives you the advantage of building support against the Media, which many in your country already do not trust. If you can find a reasonable diet of meat to put in your "meal", there's nothing like a surge of support to feed upon itself and overwhelm ANYTHING out there. A tidal wave of mad dogs and Englishmen, as it were, can be truly unstoppable. As many of your nation's foes found out in the past.
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richard on 02/02/2013(UTC), meltemian on 02/02/2013(UTC), Ravenscar on 03/02/2013(UTC)
thespecialone
#6 Posted : 02 February 2013 13:47:53(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: richard Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Ravenscar Go to Quoted Post
I'll have to think about it - the idea of a referendum does not appeal, Cameron plays loose and fast - we need an existential crisis in the EZ - the MSM have stopped showing Athenians scavenging and blaring on Spanish youth unemployment figures.

Lord and heavens above, do we need a strategy though.

We, are still too divided and they [TPTB] have us just where they want us and though I have the utmost respect for Lord Lawson - not least for his stand out anti green agenda stance - he is maybe though, a little over optimistic on the solidity of British-EU-scepticism.


It still points to reform of the electoral system [small matter] and Referism - does it not Richard?



Referism, absorbed into the Harrogate Agenda, is certainly in my view, a key part of the fight. I think I have said before, I have no particular interest in the idea of repatriating powers from Brussels, if all that happens is that they go to officials in Whitehall (or even our town halls) under the nominal control of elected representatives.



I wouldn't trust officials in Whitehall or town halls to run the proverbial p*ss up in a brewery. They are both the same and love to spend taxpayers' money on THEIR pet projects and is another example of why real democracy is dead.

Or even officials like this leech and his wife http://www.dailymail.co....Birmingham-paid-for.html
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richard on 02/02/2013(UTC)
Flashman
#7 Posted : 02 February 2013 15:19:38(UTC)
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I like that old Guardian cartoon. 'Europe' the bright new future. Mad

Not that there's any going back to the old Commonwealth but looking at the growth rates in India, malaysia, Canada, Australia etc etc and comparing to Greece, Spain, Italy what fools we were.
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SeanOHare on 02/02/2013(UTC)
Niall Warry
#8 Posted : 02 February 2013 15:36:20(UTC)
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THE WORLD
richard
#9 Posted : 02 February 2013 16:08:01(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Niall Warry Go to Quoted Post


THE WORLD




Good one! BigGrin

Bandit 1
#10 Posted : 02 February 2013 17:59:47(UTC)
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SELF-DETERMINATION

Or, if we can employ a slightly different nautical metaphor to that in the original cartoon, have the ramshackle SS Euro floundering (not much imagination required) while all around it nimble, smaller craft - the South Korea, the Singapore, the Norway ;) - zoom by.
telecaster
#11 Posted : 02 February 2013 19:42:52(UTC)
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The word on the beach is 'home.'

This word was used to good effect in the Euro '96 football chant song 'Three lions / football's coming home.'
jaguar driver
#12 Posted : 03 February 2013 01:01:12(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Bandit 1 Go to Quoted Post
SELF-DETERMINATION

Or, if we can employ a slightly different nautical metaphor to that in the original cartoon, have the ramshackle SS Euro floundering (not much imagination required) while all around it nimble, smaller craft - the South Korea, the Singapore, the Norway ;) - zoom by.


We need to see if we can get 'Fenbeagle' to do a set of cartoons along that style you suggest.

He has a certain unmistakable style and gets his blade in straight and true.

The greenies must loathe him. BigGrin

FITTLEWOOD
#13 Posted : 03 February 2013 09:56:03(UTC)
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"I don't accept the comfortable fiction that people were somehow deceived into believing that this was about a trading arrangement."

For MP's and particularly the Labour cabinet at the time, it was probably the case that they knew the situation. For the public at large and myself included who took little interest in politics at the time the prospect of a better trading climate seemed worth a vote in favour. I would surmise that many voters, especially the younger voter, felt that putting the war behind us was a good thing. We were all taken in by the propaganda which was so brilliantly researched by Trevor Colman MEP and others so that UKIP members could inform the public of the devious way that the 1975 referendum was won.

Your blog is so correct in pointing out the change in mood since those days. people thought I was mad when first taking up the baton against the EU, firstly for the faux Referendum Party and then for UKIP after hearing Christopher Booker, Bill Jamieson & Nigel Farage at the City Hall in Salisbury on a dreary night in Salisbury in 1996 before an audience of nearly 500 people.

Many of the people who thought I was mad now actively rail against the EU, especially for the immigration issues that have brought pain to those seeking work and a home, dental services, NHS services etc. Applying European Human Rights laws have added fuel to the fire.

However, the Labour Governments of Blair and Brown plus the Cameron/Clegg coalition have kept the UK ship afloat with borrowed money. Until Britain plumbs the depths of poverty like Greece and Spain, and the young and poor can be persuaded to support a political party that wishes to leave the EU there is no point in pressing for an IN/OUT referendum.

Unfortunately too many UKIP supporters are ex-Tory supporters who still "carry a torch" for that party. They wish to turn the Conservatives 180 degrees. No hope.
Until a party emerges that can coalesce the poor, the young and the disaffected to win a majority of seats in Parliament (but enough to hold the balance of power may suffice) there is little hope for the anti-EU brigade. With the worsening UK position on World Trade thanks to the EU and the Asian tigers that moment is coming nearer.

Clearly, this party needs intelligent people with the ability to govern and to generate successful trade. But it will happen !
Diehard_TH
#14 Posted : 03 February 2013 12:07:43(UTC)
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Cartoon labellng should read:

  • Sinking ship = EU
  • Lifeboat = Article 50
  • Shore = EFTA or EEC or something meaning the same but catchier!


Not sure abut the wording, maybe remove it altogether and just leave the imagery?

And Dr North, I think you are correct in that Cameron doesn't look like he'll win the next election and even if he does any potential referendum will be rigged and we'll lose it. Thus our task should be to convince our government to realise that enacting Article 50 will win it the popular vote.
richard
#15 Posted : 03 February 2013 12:33:20(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Diehard_TH Go to Quoted Post
Thus our task should be to convince our government to realise that enacting Article 50 will win it the popular vote.




Agree.

Diehard_TH
#16 Posted : 03 February 2013 16:48:43(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: richard Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Diehard_TH Go to Quoted Post
Thus our task should be to convince our government to realise that enacting Article 50 will win it the popular vote.


Agree.



Alas, the harder part may well be convincing the popular vote that Article 50 is the answer. I would would think however that we probably only have to convince either the electorate or the government to have the desired effect but I have no idea which would be easier [or in actuality; least hardest]
nemesis
#17 Posted : 03 February 2013 17:09:48(UTC)
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Like Mmatis, the word 'Freedom' was the first thing that popped into my head. Its a word that is much under rated by our political classes who much prefer to promote 'Equality' (which in effect restricts freedom).
On the other hand, if your cold, wet and all at sea, just 'dry land' would be a welcome sight.
comet
#18 Posted : 03 February 2013 17:35:15(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Diehard_TH Go to Quoted Post


Alas, the harder part may well be convincing the popular vote that Article 50 is the answer. I would would think however that we probably only have to convince either the electorate or the government to have the desired effect but I have no idea which would be easier [or in actuality; least hardest]



I don't see it as a particularly hard sell in view of the things people like to believe:

We only signed up to a trade arrangement in 1975. The EEC was hijacked and became political and was turned into the EU.

The EU has gone too far and the process should be halted and reversed.

"In Europe but not ruled by Europe" is a fair and sensible position and that's what we should aim for. Well, that's nonsense viewed from a position of EU membership, but if you rephrase it,
"In Europe economically but not ruled by the political EU", the only way to do it is by disengaging from the political EU and negotiating a trading arrangement, which is what invoking article 50 is, and article 50 is the only practical way to do it.

Now the Single market is a means to exert political control and there are all sorts of objections; it's over-simplified argument set to address popular viewpoints which are ill-founded, but it's an approximation to the truth and it isn't thoroughly dishonest, as is the Tory renegotiation patter and Poor Little Norway claptrap.

I think the appeal and commonsense of the argument is why so much effort has been put into the Norway fax-democracy line.

As for convincing the government, they don't want to be convinced and they don't want to do anything about the EU unless forced. The things that a lot of people object to, such as the flow of useless and damaging legislation, are pretty much exactly the things they like. The history is not that the UK government is bossed around by the EU, it's that they've willingly become part of the same system of government and very often use the EU to push for, and as an excuse for, things they are enthusiastic about anyway.




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richard on 03/02/2013(UTC)
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