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richard
#1 Posted : 11 January 2013 22:06:46(UTC)
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Noticeably absent from the media in the current debate on the EU has been UKIP, not least because it seems set on its usual path of self-destruction.

That aside, one cannot help but contrast the difference in treatment between the eurosceptic UKIP, and the europhile wing of the Conservative Party. On the one hand, we have the BBC reporting on Amy Lame talking about "political oddness" – which is about as near as UKIP gets to any recent publicity.

Yet, all it needs for the europhile case to be aired is for the leader of the UK Conservative MEPs, Richard Ashworth, to speak at what is labelled a "debate", this one organised by the europhile Business for New Europe in London. Then, he gets full-frontal treatment on the BBC website, where he is allowed to deplore the UK's "pitbull" image.

View full article here
Watchet
#2 Posted : 12 January 2013 01:59:53(UTC)
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Quote:
Norway or Switzerland..."both countries have to accept the rules of the club, while exercising no voice in making them".

I have read that Norway, as a EEA member, can reject EU-sourced directives & measures, but if it does so, is then excluded from further deliberations in the future on related measures. Is this so? I have also read that this is the prime reason why Norway only rarely uses this privilege in relation to any EU-sourced measures & directives. Is this true?

If so, what can Norway, & perhaps Britain too in the future, do to avoid being ham-strung by this restriction? And are Switzerland, Iceland, & Liechtenstein similarly affected?

Any one know?

Watchet
comet
#3 Posted : 12 January 2013 02:53:28(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: richard Go to Quoted Post
Noticeably absent from the media in the current debate on the EU has been UKIP, not least because it seems set on its usual path of self-destruction.

That aside, one cannot help but contrast the difference in treatment between the eurosceptic UKIP, and the europhile wing of the Conservative Party. On the one hand, we have the BBC reporting on Amy Lame talking about "political oddness" – which is about as near as UKIP gets to any recent publicity.

Yet, all it needs for the europhile case to be aired is for the leader of the UK Conservative MEPs, Richard Ashworth, to speak at what is labelled a "debate", this one organised by the europhile Business for New Europe in London. Then, he gets full-frontal treatment on the BBC website, where he is allowed to deplore the UK's "pitbull" image.

View full article here


Why should Farage interrupt his enemy when he's making a mistake? The time for a detailed deconstruction of Cameron's nonsense comes after he's made his speech - in Holland.

Eurosceptics have limited access to the media. which is loaded, and it has to count, which means registering at an emotional level which is often distasteful.

Edited by user 12 January 2013 02:54:10(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

richard
#4 Posted : 12 January 2013 05:19:21(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Watchet Go to Quoted Post
Quote:
Norway or Switzerland..."both countries have to accept the rules of the club, while exercising no voice in making them".

I have read that Norway, as a EEA member, can reject EU-sourced directives & measures, but if it does so, is then excluded from further deliberations in the future on related measures. Is this so? I have also read that this is the prime reason why Norway only rarely uses this privilege in relation to any EU-sourced measures & directives. Is this true?

If so, what can Norway, & perhaps Britain too in the future, do to avoid being ham-strung by this restriction? And are Switzerland, Iceland, & Liechtenstein similarly affected?

Any one know?

Watchet


It's complicated, but that is roughly right ... WfF deals with the "veto" provisions here ...

http://witteringsfromwit...overnment-by-fax-really/

Although it is better known as a "right of refusal", it is regarded by some as a blunt instrument ... see here (footnote 33 on page 14):

http://www.effective-int...8fBjornsson.erc.EFTA.pdf


Personally, I don't get too hung up on this ... the issue is not primarily as to whether EFTA states have a veto as to what influence they have on the formulation of legislation. International relations are a lot more complex and subtle than are indicated by the FT. It is not a question of knuckle-draggers stomping around with a big club labelled "veto", but a matter of negotiation and trading influence. Generally, where Norway in particular really does not want to implement something, it seems to find a way round it ... as in its refusal to take on the postal directive ... although there is considerable tension on the EEA issue ...

http://www.policy-networ...ght-over-EU-relationship

http://www.epc.eu/docume...nomic_area_revisited.pdf

My view, for what it is worth, is that the EEA is very far from perfect, but is a good half-way house, on the way to full withdrawal.

Edited by user 12 January 2013 05:24:16(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

richard
#5 Posted : 12 January 2013 05:32:17(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: comet Go to Quoted Post


Why should Farage interrupt his enemy when he's making a mistake? The time for a detailed deconstruction of Cameron's nonsense comes after he's made his speech - in Holland.

Eurosceptics have limited access to the media. which is loaded, and it has to count, which means registering at an emotional level which is often distasteful.




When you look at the publicity UKIP is currently attracting, one could take the view that there are a few "own goals" on the scorecard. And while getting publicity is difficult, being absent from the field of battle on certain issues (Norway, for instance), doesn't exactly help. No one could possibly suggest that UKIP is the "go-to" organisation on the EU, which means it has left a huge gap in its strategy.

Certainly, it was my view when I was working for UKIP that we should build up a track record as being precisely that, a "go-to" organisation on all matters EU - the sort of role adopted by Open Europe. Farage has completely dropped the ball on this, which means that all too often UKIP is not part of the debate. This is what we are seeing at present, where the website is silent on many topical issues.

thespecialone
#6 Posted : 12 January 2013 09:27:36(UTC)
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There is another anti-UKIP story in the DM today which has absolutely nothing to do with politics. It is the kind of story that is not in the public interest to know either as it affects nobody but those involved. This is definitely what I have noticed about the DM certainly recently in that they are printing anti-UKIP stories which should not be there:

http://www.dailymail.co....-wife-called-police.html
richard
#7 Posted : 12 January 2013 10:03:52(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: thespecialone Go to Quoted Post
There is another anti-UKIP story in the DM today which has absolutely nothing to do with politics. It is the kind of story that is not in the public interest to know either as it affects nobody but those involved. This is definitely what I have noticed about the DM certainly recently in that they are printing anti-UKIP stories which should not be there:

http://www.dailymail.co....-wife-called-police.html





There is plenty more where that came from ... a couple of television documentaries in the making. Now that UKIP is higher profile, there is a market for "knocking copy" and all sorts of nastiness is going to come out of the woodwork. On the other hand, no one is treating UKIP as a serious party, nor Farage as a serious politician. As ye sow, so shall ye reap ...

Watchet
#8 Posted : 12 January 2013 11:19:38(UTC)
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Richard wrote:
Quote:
My view, for what it is worth, is that the EEA is very far from perfect, but is a good half-way house, on the way to full withdrawal.

Thank you, Richard, for all that information. I shall study it carefully.

Watchet
John Archer
#9 Posted : 12 January 2013 19:13:48(UTC)
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richard wrote:
No one could possibly suggest that UKIP is the "go-to" organisation on the EU, which means it has left a huge gap in its strategy.

Certainly, it was my view when I was working for UKIP that we should build up a track record as being precisely that, a "go-to" organisation on all matters EU - the sort of role adopted by Open Europe. Farage has completely dropped the ball on this, which means that all too often UKIP is not part of the debate. This is what we are seeing at present, where the website is silent on many topical issues.

That's a key thing — being a "go-to" source of solid information.

If Farage had taken your advice all those years ago then by now UKIP would have gained a solid reputation as being a highly reliable and comprehensive source on all things EU, a reputation which the media would have found impossible to ignore. The absence of any UKIP input on, say, a Newsnight item on any major EU development would be too glaringly obvious even for al beeb to get away with.

But it isn't just about being a source of solid information. Since almost all of that voluminous information is excruciatingly boring, and deliberately so in order to mask and deter most from discovering the reality of the EU, there's a real need to make that information digestible by setting it in a proper context and providing a suitable analysis. Furthermore, and this is the most important thing in my view, by doing so one is in a good position to pre-empt the europhiliacs' attempts to 'frame the debate' and generally 'lead' by misdirection.

This context-setting etc would have gained UKIP the reputation for having a hard intellectual edge, an invaluable thing in my view — there's nothing like explanatory power and depth of insight for attracting and persuading enquiring minds and winning converts.

Yes, if Farage had played his cards right years ago, your boots by now would probably be covered in heavy indentations from periodically rearranging Paxman's teeth, and the rest of his phizog. It's a shame we never got to see that show.

[Shame about Paxman, because he's not the worst of them. But he'll do for iconoclastic purposes. Besides, he's getting rich on al beeb's licence-fee extortion.]
woohoo02
#10 Posted : 12 January 2013 19:29:58(UTC)
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I have read your blog for a while, with interest Dr North, and as a whole I agree with the Harrogate Agenda, I am however sorry to see the feud with yourself and Ukip, as you seem to have approximately the same aims. What we need to get out of the EU is a united opposition to counter the negative press as you quoted in your blog, which smears Ukip for having Christian Values, and unlike Cameron/Blair et al, have the guts to dismiss those who do not support the values of the party.

I do believe maybe that you all should unite ,not under one ruler, but just be politicians!!

Edited by user 12 January 2013 19:35:10(UTC)  | Reason: comma

richard
#11 Posted : 12 January 2013 22:30:11(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: woohoo02 Go to Quoted Post
I have read your blog for a while, with interest Dr North, and as a whole I agree with the Harrogate Agenda, I am however sorry to see the feud with yourself and Ukip, as you seem to have approximately the same aims. What we need to get out of the EU is a united opposition to counter the negative press as you quoted in your blog, which smears Ukip for having Christian Values, and unlike Cameron/Blair et al, have the guts to dismiss those who do not support the values of the party.

I do believe maybe that you all should unite ,not under one ruler, but just be politicians!!



Welcome to the forum.



In response, I have to say that I am, in principle, supportive of UKIP as a party, although not uncritical of it. I don't believe that it should be any more immune from criticism than any other party, and should be taken to task when it fails to perform. I am thus critical of UKIP when it performs badly, but that does not constitute a feud. If there is a feud, it is between Farage and myself, initiated by Farage who forced me out of the party and out of my post as a staff researcher. If you want to mend that fracture, it is Farage you must first address.

In more general terms, my default view is that euroscepticism is a failed (or failing) movement, as a result of its many flaws, and will continue to fail until and unless it it improves both strategy and tactics. I also believe that poor tactics and the lack of a winning strategy can be counter-productive, with some parts of the movement (and occasionally UKIP) actually strengthening the europhile cause. As such, I see no great merit in unity per se, if it is a question of uniting behind a flawed campaign.

Edited by user 12 January 2013 22:32:18(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

richard
#12 Posted : 12 January 2013 22:42:23(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: John Archer Go to Quoted Post
richard wrote:
No one could possibly suggest that UKIP is the "go-to" organisation on the EU, which means it has left a huge gap in its strategy.

Certainly, it was my view when I was working for UKIP that we should build up a track record as being precisely that, a "go-to" organisation on all matters EU - the sort of role adopted by Open Europe. Farage has completely dropped the ball on this, which means that all too often UKIP is not part of the debate. This is what we are seeing at present, where the website is silent on many topical issues.


That's a key thing — being a "go-to" source of solid information.



I'm glad you agree. I came to that view from practical experience, working for the egg industry in the wake of Edwina Currie's salmonella in eggs scare. The industry was fighting for media access, in the context that egg farmers were being branded as the slaughterers of babies and grannies, so we were finding it very difficult to get a hearing. At that time, getting authenticated food poisoning figures was very difficult and weekly trends were not being published. Thus, I hit upon the idea of collating the figures, working out a weekly trend and then circulating a press release, with these data and my commentary, to all the major newspapers. As a result, we became the "go-to" body for information on food poisoning and were able to start shaping the debate.

I took this experience with me to UKIP, and it was very much my strategy that we should cultivate the media by becoming a reliable source of data and analysis about the EU. That was the main reason for writing The Great Deception. Farage, however, had different ideas ... and we are now very familiar with his style. But you have to ask yourself, who gets the most exposure on EU matters ... UKIP, or Open Europe?

Edited by user 12 January 2013 22:48:08(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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