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richard
#1 Posted : 11 January 2013 14:06:35(UTC)
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Your Freedom and Ours wonders which language Mr Cameron will use in his much-delayed speech on "Europe", which The Sun reliably informs us will now be on 22 January.

We are also told by the totally reliable and scrupulously honest Tom Newton Dunn, that Mr Cameron will be enlisting the support of Dutch leader Mark Rutte, who will "back his bid to fight for powers and money to be returned to nation states".

Thus, is would appear that the stage is set for another round of fantasy politics: "After a major renegotiation", writes TND, "Mr Cameron will then finally offer the British people an In or Out say, probably around 2018". Here, one notes in passing, is another hack who isn't thinking through the implications of a five-year delay. But then, no one goes to The Sun for its thinking.

View full article here
mmatis
#2 Posted : 11 January 2013 14:17:41(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: richard Go to Quoted Post
<snip>
But then, no one goes to The Sun for its thinking.
<snip>
View full article here

So what you're saying is none of the Sun "readers" make it past Page 3, eh?

Wonder if they've considered putting out a braille version...
}:-]
Dodgy Geezer
#3 Posted : 11 January 2013 14:43:24(UTC)
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Quote:
We are also told by the totally reliable and scrupulously honest Tom Newton Dunn, that Mr Cameron will be enlisting the support of Dutch leader Mark Rutte, who will "back his bid to fight for powers and money to be returned to nation states".


I can't think of ANY politician or bureaucrat who isn't CONVINCED that the European Union (followed shortly by the World Union) is an ideal way to run a country/continent/planet.

I can't think of ANY average citizen in the business of generating wealth who thinks that it is.

Therein lies the issue.

Edited by user 11 January 2013 14:45:44(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

vincent
#4 Posted : 11 January 2013 14:49:15(UTC)
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Quote:
Europe and the UK, he then goes on to say - eliding "Europe" with the EU - "need each other and our economies are closely intertwined". He tells us: "More than half of Britain's exports go to the EU (meaning EU member states), we sell more to North Rhine-Westphalia than to India. British companies employ 200,000 people in Germany, 400,000 Britons work for German companies in Britain".


Ok I'll accept that may be correct,but what of it?Can't we do that and increase exports to India,why does there have to be a ceiling?...oh I forgot the EU is a protectionist cartel that doesn't like free trade.
vincent
#5 Posted : 11 January 2013 15:09:26(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Dodgy Geezer Go to Quoted Post
Quote:
We are also told by the totally reliable and scrupulously honest Tom Newton Dunn, that Mr Cameron will be enlisting the support of Dutch leader Mark Rutte, who will "back his bid to fight for powers and money to be returned to nation states".


I can't think of ANY politician or bureaucrat who isn't CONVINCED that the European Union (followed shortly by the World Union) is an ideal way to run a country/continent/planet.

I can't think of ANY average citizen in the business of generating wealth who thinks that it is.

Therein lies the issue.


The Dutch are unreliable allies,they promise to fight by our side then when the crunch comes they revert to the submissive role.Something along the lines they talk the talk but don't walk the walk.Anyhows they voted to go with the Fiscal pact and now they change their mind......schizophrenic springs to mind.
D W Buxton
#6 Posted : 11 January 2013 15:33:11(UTC)
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Why is the MSM in denial? It has surely been made plain over many years now that the EU, not Europe, is the problem simply because it works as it was designed to work. It is a bureaucrats idea of how to run one big state, no democracy, no accountability and protectionist. Is that too difficult to work out, after all, yourself and Mr. Booker have obviously done the homework and written the conclusion, what more is needed? Maybe as in the book I am reading at present, we should adapt Luther's attitude. He pored over the Bible and worked out the meaning of every word and phrase and then attacked from a position of strength. He had the same problem that we now have, a long established Church claiming to be the only source of information and having total authority over everyone, including Emperors and Kings.
There does seem to be an unholy alliance spewing out the same old tired lies at the moment, one would think that they are up to something, something definitely not in our interest.
richard
#7 Posted : 11 January 2013 15:49:21(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: D W Buxton Go to Quoted Post
Why is the MSM in denial? It has surely been made plain over many years now that the EU, not Europe, is the problem simply because it works as it was designed to work. It is a bureaucrats idea of how to run one big state, no democracy, no accountability and protectionist. Is that too difficult to work out, after all, yourself and Mr. Booker have obviously done the homework and written the conclusion, what more is needed? Maybe as in the book I am reading at present, we should adapt Luther's attitude. He pored over the Bible and worked out the meaning of every word and phrase and then attacked from a position of strength. He had the same problem that we now have, a long established Church claiming to be the only source of information and having total authority over everyone, including Emperors and Kings.
There does seem to be an unholy alliance spewing out the same old tired lies at the moment, one would think that they are up to something, something definitely not in our interest.



It is all part of the deception ... the elision of EU with "Europe" ... and now, also, the EU with "single market". Some of it is laziness, some stupidity, but a lot of it is quite deliberate.

Flashman
#8 Posted : 11 January 2013 16:00:54(UTC)
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Quote:
British companies employ 200,000 people in Germany, 400,000 Britons work for German companies in Britain".



British companies employ xxx,xxx people in USA, xxx,xxx Britons work for USA companies in Britain.

And not even part of the same country or trade organisation. So how does this state of affairs manage to exist Mr Osborne?Flapper
vincent
#9 Posted : 11 January 2013 16:18:15(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: D W Buxton Go to Quoted Post
Why is the MSM in denial? It has surely been made plain over many years now that the EU, not Europe, is the problem simply because it works as it was designed to work. It is a bureaucrats idea of how to run one big state, no democracy, no accountability and protectionist. Is that too difficult to work out, after all, yourself and Mr. Booker have obviously done the homework and written the conclusion, what more is needed? Maybe as in the book I am reading at present, we should adapt Luther's attitude. He pored over the Bible and worked out the meaning of every word and phrase and then attacked from a position of strength. He had the same problem that we now have, a long established Church claiming to be the only source of information and having total authority over everyone, including Emperors and Kings.
There does seem to be an unholy alliance spewing out the same old tired lies at the moment, one would think that they are up to something, something definitely not in our interest.




I like that image....Luther nailing his theses to the church door.I am sure we we can get Richard to do a "95 theses" on the EU and which he can hammer into the doors at Berlaymont Palace...make a great a photo opportunity.... a dagger into the heart of the modern day Roman Empire.BigGrin

Edited by user 11 January 2013 17:02:04(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

comet
#10 Posted : 11 January 2013 16:47:22(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: D W Buxton Go to Quoted Post
Why is the MSM in denial? It has surely been made plain over many years now that the EU, not Europe, is the problem simply because it works as it was designed to work. It is a bureaucrats idea of how to run one big state, no democracy, no accountability and protectionist. Is that too difficult to work out, after all, yourself and Mr. Booker have obviously done the homework and written the conclusion, what more is needed? Maybe as in the book I am reading at present, we should adapt Luther's attitude. He pored over the Bible and worked out the meaning of every word and phrase and then attacked from a position of strength. He had the same problem that we now have, a long established Church claiming to be the only source of information and having total authority over everyone, including Emperors and Kings.
There does seem to be an unholy alliance spewing out the same old tired lies at the moment, one would think that they are up to something, something definitely not in our interest.


It's very difficult for people to accept that the EU is an all or nothing proposition. The whole point if it is to create a single European state, as you've described and if you are a member, that's what you are signed up to.
There's no happy medium and no thus far but no farther, so repatriation of powers is just tosh. However, the idea of a compromise is very seductive.

The other thing is that with all the talk of jobs and trade, it's a political project to experiment with a novel form of government, and to inflict this without asking by deception and creating crises to which the answer is more Europe for fear of something worse. Avoiding the political nature of the thing by constantly talking about economics is the essence of the lie we were told in the early 70s.

I question whether Cameron understands any of this. He just doesn't do Europe and doesn't want it to be a nuisance in his little world of being called PM.

I'd guess a lot of people commenting on the EU haven't really grasped these points. I also get the impression that a lot of Telegraph journalists are pretty much in bed with the Conservative party and have had a few favours called in for them to bolster the reform line to encourage a favourable reception of Cameron's speech, which is why we have the about turns.




graham wood
#11 Posted : 11 January 2013 19:29:50(UTC)
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Osborne tells the paper he very much hopes the UK will remain a member of the EU but, in order to stay in the European Union, the EU needs to change.


Excellent! So thats it then. The Draper has spoken, and lo, change must therefore come to the EU..... OR ELSE.

But seriously, does this deluded idiot really believe that "change", whatever that might mean, is even possible for the EU?
Does he not realise that the central plank of its whole raison d'etre, like the Church of Rome, its autocratic parallel, is 'Semper Eadem, it never changes. Does not wish to change. Will never change, and that change ai'nt coming, tomorrow, next week, never.

The only small consolation we can draw from Osborne's remark is that because the EU will not ever change, then of course we are destined to leave Blushing
Titanic to iceberg: "change course immediately or we will ram you"
comet
#12 Posted : 11 January 2013 20:15:59(UTC)
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Graham,

Drivel like Osborne's outpouring can be expected when the Conservatives don't have an honest, coherent policy they can enunciate. They have an actual agenda to stay in the EU at any cost which informs their actions, and a fanciful reform and repatriation story for the suckers, but the problem is that some of the suckers are senior Tories. They just can't explain simply, honestly, and without vapid nonsense about 'not shouting from the sidelines' what their policy is, probably because they don't really know, and so it's no wonder senior people can come out with all sorts of ridiculous and contradictory things.
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