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richard
#1 Posted : 29 December 2012 17:28:39(UTC)
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There is a tendency amongst some to regard UKIP as beyond criticism, displaying a sensitivity that is not extended to other political parties. That said, in any review of this latest piece in the Daily Mail, one must focus as much on the newspaper as its subject. This is the lowest possible grade of personality politics that does no-one any good.

One might thus question the judgement of Farage and his press team in allowing such a travesty to be published. It may play well with his fans, but its portrayal of Farage as the "Jack-the-lad" can do nothing to attract voters looking for a serious politician with workable policies.

However, even when the message is totally under the control of the party, as in this seasonal message on YouTube, we don't get a much more coherent picture. Farage, for instance, in a public utterance on Article 50, displays little of the tactical acumen than one needs of a successful party leader.

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TheBoilingFrog
#2 Posted : 29 December 2012 17:43:36(UTC)
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One of the problems with Farage is his failure to understand the fundamental and sometimes subtle paradox of leadership.

Yes it's good he has a common touch but on the other hand he also needs to show gravitas and be slightly aloof. The same issue affected Louis Philippe I who was king of France between 1830 to 1848. He adopted a common touch to distance himself from predecessors which initially made him popular, including dressing and shaving himself against established protocol at the time for a King. But this same unpretentious behaviour meant that many in France also didn't take him seriously - he wasn't doing what a King was supposed or expected to do, which in part lead to his abdication in 1848.

Edited by user 29 December 2012 17:45:49(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

James102
#3 Posted : 29 December 2012 17:59:43(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: TheBoilingFrog Go to Quoted Post

Yes it's good he has a common touch but on the other hand he also needs to show gravitas and be slightly aloof. .


This is the age when Boris Johnson can be spoken of (seriously) as the next Conservative Prime Minister.
This is not an age of gravitas.

jaguar driver
#4 Posted : 29 December 2012 18:49:46(UTC)
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What I want is a cold hearted bastard who is willing to stick a dagger up the clitoris of the pathetic girlie-men who at present inhabit Westminster.
Someone who is photogenic and cool and calm enough to go on television and who is also knowledgeable enough to bluntly explain why we need to get out of the E.U. without any of the cliches and fantasizing we at present have to endure.

He, or she, needs to be able to explain why our continued presence will bring us nothing but woe, colossal costs and waste that has been laid on the back of the British taxpayer and will just continue for the foreseeable future.

Bringing enlightenment to the viewing public that over the last forty years the British taxpayer has probably laid out nearly ½ £Trillion pounds of British taxpayers money that has been gleefully spent on the continent by our continental competitors.

This person needs to sensibly explain how we can legally remove ourselves from the E.U. and the time it will take and what systems and precautions need to be set up for all this to be carried out.

I think once someone who can coldly explain all this then the penny might just finally drop with the people and our exit will be obvious, inevitable and unstoppable regardless which political party of girlie-men get elected.

James102 said:-
Quote:
This is the age when Boris Johnson can be spoken of (seriously) as the next Conservative Prime Minister.
This is not an age of gravitas.


Yes, precisely. God help us!Cursing
In2minds
#5 Posted : 29 December 2012 19:21:33(UTC)
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Richard wrote -

Quote:
One might thus question the judgement of Farage and his press team in allowing...............


He has a team, are you sure?
comet
#6 Posted : 29 December 2012 19:39:40(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: richard Go to Quoted Post

One might thus question the judgement of Farage and his press team in allowing such a travesty to be published. It may play well with his fans, but its portrayal of Farage as the "Jack-the-lad" can do nothing to attract voters looking for a serious politician with workable policies.

However, even when the message is totally under the control of the party, as in this seasonal message on YouTube, we don't get a much more coherent picture. Farage, for instance, in a public utterance on Article 50, displays little of the tactical acumen than one needs of a successful party leader.


Rather too harsh. Who of the current crop is a serious politician with workable policies? Cameron, Clegg, Miliband, Salmond, or anyone remotely likely to replace them.

Also the press tends to trivialise and infantilise everything and has for years. Maggie lashes Jim and all the rest. The idea that was successfully launched that Heath was incapable of running the country because he was off sailing his yacht all the time, which I heard people echo in all seriousness. Heath had many defects, but the idea he was bunking off parliamentary business to go sailing is quite ridiculous.

Yes the Art 50 statement was a gaff, and it was disturbing, but as long as he doesn't repeat it, he can forget it.

James102
#7 Posted : 29 December 2012 20:00:20(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: comet Go to Quoted Post
[quote=richard;8095]


Also the press tends to trivialise and infantilise everything and has for years. Maggie lashes Jim and all the rest. The idea that was successfully launched that Heath was incapable of running the country because he was off sailing his yacht all the time, which I heard people echo in all seriousness. Heath had many defects, but the idea he was bunking off parliamentary business to go sailing is quite ridiculous.

Yes the Art 50 statement was a gaff, and it was disturbing, but as long as he doesn't repeat it, he can forget it.




We live in an era and society that would destroy previous towering political leaders such as Churchill or Macmillan.
Churchill would never have survived his financial reliance on Sir Bernard Waley Cohen and Sir Henry Strakosch and as for Macmillan’s wife cuckolding him with Robert Boothby, the homosexual lover of Ronnie Kray!
Johnson is an interesting, if depressing, example of certainly how London’s electorate votes particularly after Livingstone----you may remember him ,he welcomed Irish terrorists at a time the security forces were scrapping the remains of children off walls in various British and Irish cities.
We do still have serious politicians but they don’t appeal to our juvenile media so will not get a sympathetic hearing.

richard
#8 Posted : 29 December 2012 20:41:57(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: James102 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: comet Go to Quoted Post
[quote=richard;8095]


Also the press tends to trivialise and infantilise everything and has for years. Maggie lashes Jim and all the rest. The idea that was successfully launched that Heath was incapable of running the country because he was off sailing his yacht all the time, which I heard people echo in all seriousness. Heath had many defects, but the idea he was bunking off parliamentary business to go sailing is quite ridiculous.

Yes the Art 50 statement was a gaff, and it was disturbing, but as long as he doesn't repeat it, he can forget it.




We live in an era and society that would destroy previous towering political leaders such as Churchill or Macmillan.
Churchill would never have survived his financial reliance on Sir Bernard Waley Cohen and Sir Henry Strakosch and as for Macmillan’s wife cuckolding him with Robert Boothby, the homosexual lover of Ronnie Kray!
Johnson is an interesting, if depressing, example of certainly how London’s electorate votes particularly after Livingstone----you may remember him ,he welcomed Irish terrorists at a time the security forces were scrapping the remains of children off walls in various British and Irish cities.
We do still have serious politicians but they don’t appeal to our juvenile media so will not get a sympathetic hearing.





Which is why we must by-pass the legacy media .. but Farage has never cottoned onto that either. BNP, for all its many failings, did understand this, and managed to produce the most-viewed political party site in the UK. Thus, he sucks up to the legacy media ... and this is what they do to him.

Edited by user 29 December 2012 20:45:14(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

James102
#9 Posted : 29 December 2012 21:09:03(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: richard Go to Quoted Post



Which is why we must by-pass the legacy media .. but Farage has never cottoned onto that either. BNP, for all its many failings, did understand this, and managed to produce the most-viewed political party site in the UK. Thus, he sucks up to the legacy media ... and this is what they do to him.



Yes but the problem is the broadcast media, particularly TV, which because of its influence is pivotal. Unfortunately it is also dominated by the BBC, directly due to its size and indirectly due to the fact that it is at the centre of employment opportunities for the sector.

mmatis
#10 Posted : 29 December 2012 21:24:52(UTC)
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You say:
Quote:
"...it takes more than an affinity for booze, fags and wenches to get us out of the European Union..."

But is it not "booze, fags, and wenches" which garner the most viewership in the Media? After all, you have recognized that "panem et circenses" is the way to your nation's heart. And is not BFW merely that by a different name?
FITTLEWOOD
#11 Posted : 29 December 2012 21:44:46(UTC)
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Plenty of wringing of hands - and not surprising seeing how well-entrenched the UKIP hierarchy seem to be, yet how shallow is their Leader and how weak is their organisation.

There is no question that the public in UK will suffer the downward slide of the Club-Med countries. Our manufacturing (trading) ability has been compromised by successive governments allowing Germany and now the Asian continent to develop their industries whilst we sat on our hands, except in some specialist areas.

The politians and financiers hold the high cards. Most politicians in the West, from Obama downwards sing to the tune of the financiers and their agenda. They will make money wherever they can, balancing the current international agenda for their advantage.

UK getting out of the EU is not in their agenda. Their friends in the media and in major businesses like Barclays, Unilever, Royal Dutch Shell et al, will do everything they can to prevent it.

To leave the EU, there needs to be a succession of stages:-

1. To remove the boulder (Farage's UKIP) blocking the path of a serious anti-EU Group and replace it with a genuine body comprised of people without an affinity to Labour, Conservative or Lib-Dem. To do so one must either infiltrate UKIP and take it over from the inside or replace it with something better organised and with a branch structure capable of delivering at election time. UKIP had David Lott, Malcolm Wood and notable others capable of running an election campaign but I doubt whether the current administration will be able to compete in the 2013 Local Elections, let alone a General Election in 2015. A huge effort will be made for 2014 European Elections, possibly with some successes, but they will not be able to make the jump needed for a general election. UKIP needs to be elbowed aside after the certain fiasco of the 2013 local elections and an alternative party with an army of volunteers prepared to compete with UKIP in the 2014 European elections, particularly in the Labour strongholds.
2. The policies which an anti-EU group develop must resonate with both the public and the bankers'/corporate interests. Leaving the EU is not a strong enough motive for the public. There needs to be financial carrot. Democracy in itself does not cut it with many people. It will take people, money, sound economic policies and election skills to compete in 2014 & 2015. Have we a leader ?




 1 user thanked FITTLEWOOD for this useful post.
Ravenscar on 30/12/2012(UTC)
richard
#12 Posted : 29 December 2012 21:56:53(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: FITTLEWOOD Go to Quoted Post
Have we a leader ?






Welcome to the forum.


A question: Do we need a leader? Can we not work as a co-operative of equals, each contributing our own skills and time?

James102
#13 Posted : 29 December 2012 22:10:24(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: richard Go to Quoted Post
[quote=FITTLEWOOD;8108


A question: Do we need a leader? Can we not work as a co-operative of equals, each contributing our own skills and time?



We need a figure head because that is what our culture requires.
As I wrote above about Churchill etc, image often differs from fact.
The Great Leader thing seems a bit continental for my tastes.
It won't be done with a big push but by panicking the Conservative brand of our political class.They are hardly much good at anything outside parliament so will support anything that keeps them there.
Flashman
#14 Posted : 29 December 2012 22:36:42(UTC)
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Nigels fine as far as he goes.

Really he needs a more capable team around him.

If we were going to play 'fantasy' politics who would you transfer from the other parties into UKIP ?

eerrrrmmmm?
richard
#15 Posted : 29 December 2012 22:57:34(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Flashman Go to Quoted Post
Nigels fine as far as he goes.

Really he needs a more capable team around him.

If we were going to play 'fantasy' politics who would you transfer from the other parties into UKIP ?

eerrrrmmmm?



Farage has the team he deserves ... and the one he has fashioned. He prefers it that way.

If we were playing "fantasy UKIP" though, I would build a team to match and exceed the capabilities of Open Europe, making UKIP the "go-to" team for anything to do with the EU. That way, we would dominate the political and media environment.

AutonomousMind
#16 Posted : 30 December 2012 08:59:56(UTC)
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You've hit the nail firmly on the head, Richard. UKIP is still not to the 'go to' source of comment and information when it comes to serious discussion and questions about the UK's EU membership.

Sure, Farage will provide some typically jingoistic soundbites when it comes to specific issues such as fisheries or cheese naming, and even throw in a few abusive comments about Barroso and Van Rompuy. But when it comes to substantive matters about this country's direction and how independence can be achieved while securing this country's financial and trade interests, the media don't go to him.

Serious people for serious times. And thanks to things such as Farage's juvenile 'Rumpy Pumpy' label of HVR the only serious people with sufficient profile are on the 'in' side of the debate.

Being a folksy Jack the Lad caricature only gets you so far and only appeals to a narrow strand of our electorate. That's why UKIP isn't making any kind of breakthrough. The SDP performed better than UKIP ever has and in a shorter space of time. That is telling.
“The Democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not.”
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