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richard
#1 Posted : 14 December 2012 22:22:21(UTC)
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It is only when you start doing your own work that you really understand the total superficiality of the debate on the European Union – a point readily demonstrated by Witterings from Witney on the vexed issue of Norwegian "fax democracy".

The actual situation is complex, nuanced and so far from the situation painted in popular europhile mythology that one sometimes wonders which planet they actually live on.

In fact, the tired old canard stems from February 2001, when the then Norwegian Prime Minister, Jens Stoltenberg – still trying to get his fellow countrymen into the EU, coined the phrase “fax democracy”, suggesting that Norwegian officials sit by the fax machine waiting for the latest rules and regulations to arrive from Brussels.

View full article here
mmatis
#2 Posted : 15 December 2012 00:04:06(UTC)
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You say:
Quote:
"In many respects, the entire EU debate could stand or fall on this issue, and we need to deal with it robustly, giving the true picture instead of allowing facile misrepresentations to make the running. "

That indeed will be the challenge, for neither the Media nor your government - regardless of whether that government is Tory or Labour - has ANY interest in giving a true picture.
William Gruff
#3 Posted : 15 December 2012 00:25:49(UTC)
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A referendum in 2017 then? That sounds like another portion of the Tomorrow Jam our grandfathers were promised in 1918, at least the grandfathers of those of us over a certain age - younger readers should insert great or great great as appropriate.

Are we ever going to serve a new boss who isn't the same sort of scheming, self-serving bastard as the old boss?
gareth
#4 Posted : 15 December 2012 00:28:47(UTC)
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From the article:
Quote:
All of this suggests that the EEA (via EFTA) would be a useful home for the UK on its way out of the EU, and could perform as an interim stage (as it was for the Swiss), or it could be a vehicle for developing a more permanent relationship with the EU. The model is not without its flaws but, as the Norwegians themselves say, it is capable of evolution.

If the UK ever did decide what it wants it could be to the benefit of many sides other than ourselves. Norway, Lichtenstein and Luxembourg in the EEA would have a strong ally defending the principles of the single market without the political baggage of ever greater integration. If other nations followed the UK from the EU to the EEA that would further strengthen that position. It would get the UK out of the way of consolidating the Eurozone financially and politically. It would also perhaps put to bed the issue of a european army.(The US would or wouldn't appreciate that?) Our forces could be refocused on defence of the UK and our NATO obligations without being distracted by a need to consider a force that is a fantasy. Our betters would also be able to abandon the carbon emissions targets without having to admit they were irresponsible in signing up to them...

Though, if it appears too good to be true it probably is.
JO
#5 Posted : 15 December 2012 00:52:20(UTC)
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Richard .. would it be at all possible to list the the counter europhile arguments on the site? Much in the same way as you compiled the seven 'Myths' a few years back?

It would help the likes of me a great deal when arguing the points on forums, and in letters etc, if they're quickly and easily accessible.

Otherwise, I have to trawl through yards and yards of posts.

Jo



richard
#6 Posted : 15 December 2012 07:57:23(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: JO Go to Quoted Post
Richard .. would it be at all possible to list the the counter europhile arguments on the site? Much in the same way as you compiled the seven 'Myths' a few years back?

It would help the likes of me a great deal when arguing the points on forums, and in letters etc, if they're quickly and easily accessible.

Otherwise, I have to trawl through yards and yards of posts.

Jo






I'm planning on revamping the sidebar over Christmas and New Year.

The Mekon
#7 Posted : 15 December 2012 08:11:56(UTC)
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Surely this needs an article in the Mail, by you and/or Booker, to get the real facts out into the popular press?
James102
#8 Posted : 15 December 2012 10:08:59(UTC)
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But how far do these regulations apply to domestic law and trade outside the EU and EEA?
Should a company not exporting to either (or anywhere else for that matter) be subject to (say) the working time directive?
vincent
#9 Posted : 15 December 2012 10:23:49(UTC)
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That Economist piece would be a good starting point to counter the arguments for staying in the EU.To be fair the first part of it lays out exactly why we are against EU membership,just it goes off on a tangent in the second part and totally ignores everything it laid out.Then basically concludes we should stay in to avoid some VAT paperwork and having our underpaid overworked government draw up some trade agreements.

Yes there would be economic winners and losers, as always in life, but we would have saved billions not being in the EU to compensate as and where necessary(without worrying about EU competition laws).Business would adapt as it always does.As to eurosceptics just wanting to avoid rules and regs....even without the EU we will always have plenty of those as we have seen.

Edited by user 15 December 2012 10:27:14(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

richard
#10 Posted : 15 December 2012 11:43:01(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: James102 Go to Quoted Post
But how far do these regulations apply to domestic law and trade outside the EU and EEA?
Should a company not exporting to either (or anywhere else for that matter) be subject to (say) the working time directive?



The problem is that in one factory or workshop, it is very difficult to apply different rules to the same process. In manufacturing plants, you either have uniform rules, reflecting the most severe set to which the process has to conform, or there are areas set up in larger factories, where different rules apply. Sometimes, one sees plants run on different days to different rules.

Hence - and especially for larger businesses - there is pressure to generate standard, global rules. The EU in this context is too small and geographically limited to be able to define such rules and is increasingly becoming a middle-man implementing globally-agreed rules.

The problem is then that the exporting and multi-national firms (whose national operations may not export) want to see domestic producers conform with the same set of rules which they apply - hence there is pressure also to harmonise domestic law as well.

Nottoobrite
#11 Posted : 15 December 2012 12:48:11(UTC)
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If you start at the top, and would not Lord Justice Leveson be one of the top influnce makes ? Changes to the politcial stage ( as in comedy ) will be several decades away! This @#%&* has lost his way, ( re his coments downunder . ) a sure sign a advanced alzhiemers. ( will this comment get me aressted ? )
richard
#12 Posted : 15 December 2012 13:42:58(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Nottoobrite Go to Quoted Post

If you start at the top, and would not Lord Justice Leveson be one of the top influnce makes ? Changes to the politcial stage ( as in comedy ) will be several decades away! This @#%&* has lost his way, ( re his coments downunder . ) a sure sign a advanced alzhiemers. ( will this comment get me aressted ? )



Possibly for being drunk in charge of a keyboard?

 1 user thanked richard for this useful post.
Nottoobrite on 15/12/2012(UTC)
vincent
#13 Posted : 15 December 2012 15:45:02(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: richard Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Nottoobrite Go to Quoted Post

If you start at the top, and would not Lord Justice Leveson be one of the top influnce makes ? Changes to the politcial stage ( as in comedy ) will be several decades away! This @#%&* has lost his way, ( re his coments downunder . ) a sure sign a advanced alzhiemers. ( will this comment get me aressted ? )



Possibly for being drunk in charge of a keyboard?


Laugh

Yes nottobrite you might want to rewrite that after a triple espresso...or two
James102
#14 Posted : 15 December 2012 16:00:45(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: richard Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: James102 Go to Quoted Post
But how far do these regulations apply to domestic law and trade outside the EU and EEA?
Should a company not exporting to either (or anywhere else for that matter) be subject to (say) the working time directive?



The problem is that in one factory or workshop, it is very difficult to apply different rules to the same process. In manufacturing plants, you either have uniform rules, reflecting the most severe set to which the process has to conform, or there are areas set up in larger factories, where different rules apply. Sometimes, one sees plants run on different days to different rules.

Hence - and especially for larger businesses - there is pressure to generate standard, global rules. The EU in this context is too small and geographically limited to be able to define such rules and is increasingly becoming a middle-man implementing globally-agreed rules.

The problem is then that the exporting and multi-national firms (whose national operations may not export) want to see domestic producers conform with the same set of rules which they apply - hence there is pressure also to harmonise domestic law as well.



It was the 90% or whatever of our economy that does not import or export anything that I had in mind.
Hairdressers, dentists, your newsagent, even hospitals. Companies that export to say Brazil need to no doubt have the product details printed in Portuguese but they should not be required to have all their products’ details in that language by law. Hairdressers should not be required to conform to Japanese or EU working rules.
The Single Market is just another market and one we have a £4 billion or so monthly deficit with.


TheBoilingFrog
#15 Posted : 15 December 2012 19:16:11(UTC)
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I wish I had time to blog on this, but Hannan's latest post looks suspiciously like an 'oh shit' moment.

http://blogs.telegraph.c...-switzerland-not-norway/

Dressed up as a eurosceptic piece, what he in effect is arguing gets Cameron off the hook regarding Article 50 and the Norway solution.
Nottoobrite
#16 Posted : 15 December 2012 19:22:49(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: richard Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Nottoobrite Go to Quoted Post

If you start at the top, and would not Lord Justice Leveson be one of the top influnce makes ? Changes to the politcial stage ( as in comedy ) will be several decades away! This @#%&* has lost his way, ( re his coments downunder . ) a sure sign a advanced alzhiemers. ( will this comment get me aressted ? )



Possibly for being drunk in charge of a keyboard?



Perhaps I have given the wrong impression, Humour is in the eye of the beholder, I would remind those who throw stones that often the blind lead the blind !
richard
#17 Posted : 15 December 2012 19:24:49(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: TheBoilingFrog Go to Quoted Post
I wish I had time to blog on this, but Hannan's latest post looks suspiciously like an 'oh shit' moment.

http://blogs.telegraph.c...-switzerland-not-norway/

Dressed up as a eurosceptic piece, what he in effect is arguing gets Cameron off the hook regarding Article 50 and the Norway solution.



Typical of Hannan ...

Quote:
The short answer to the 'government-by-fax' merchants is that no British Eurosceptic is proposing that we copy Norway. Let me repeat that, because it doesn't seem to be getting through to the BBC or, indeed, to Number Ten: No British Eurosceptic wants to copy Norway. Our preferred model – with some adjustments – is Switzerland. It's worth taking a moment to explain the difference.


No-one exists outside his putrid little circle - by his definition neither Booker nor I (or WfW) are eurosceptics. And the man is a prat. Just how long does he think (if his addled brain is still capable of sentient thought) it would take the UK to negotiate bilateral agreements with the EU?

And in the answer to that question is the reason why we should go for the "Norway" option ... as an interim measure, if nothing else.


richard
#18 Posted : 15 December 2012 19:32:25(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Nottoobrite Go to Quoted Post


Perhaps I have given the wrong impression ...



BigGrin Stop there! Quit while you're ahead!

Nottoobrite
#19 Posted : 15 December 2012 20:19:49(UTC)
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Sorry Richard my arrow was not pointed at you, but, I read your blog every day and feel that at 82 years and still employed means that my employer is stupid or I still have something to offer, ( you, of all people must realize that tablets and alcohol do not mix and I am on 8 a day ) I do realize that sometimes my point of view is not understood by most ( am at present writing in English but thinking in a mixture of Italian and German )
Vincent
I have just had a look at some of your 446 comments, ( obviously he has lots to do, 446 in the same time I posted 40 ) perhaps he should read my post above again, at 82 years 4 espressos for me would be a death sentence .
vincent
#20 Posted : 16 December 2012 08:58:16(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Nottoobrite Go to Quoted Post



Vincent
I have just had a look at some of your 446 comments, ( obviously he has lots to do, 446 in the same time I posted 40 ) perhaps he should read my post above again, at 82 years 4 espressos for me would be a death sentence .




Sorry no offense meant just Richard's reply made me laugh.. your joke got lost in translation....I will be delighted to read whatever you post in future,so please accept my apology for any hurt caused.
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