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Conservative Party: political suicide
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Apologies for the paucity of posts. I have been in the capital, in part attempting to assess the political mood on the European Union. But it is very difficult to get anyone to focus on this matter at all. Completely dominating discussion is speculation over why David Cameron is intent on committing political suicide over the "gay marriage" issue. When even the loss-making Guardian is taking the mick, you know something is seriously amiss, and there are no end of theories as to why Cameron has chosen this disastrous course. No one can tell at this stage whether the damage will be long-lasting, but it is increasingly evident that it is severe. Some think that it will be so serious that not even a good speech on "Europe" will be sufficient to repair it. For many, it is seen as the last straw. View full article here
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Yes, it is becoming more and more difficult to try to understand what Cameron and his advisers think what passes for their strategy will accomplice. Clegg seemed to be prepared to sacrifice the LibDems to avoid the possibility of a re-run election which would have returned a more Euro sceptical government ,but why is Cameron alienating the Conservative’s core supporters? The theory of needing to win the Centre (as defined by our political class) has become dogma but this depends on assuming you don’t lose more of your core support than you gain from the so-called centre. Guardian reading supporters of fashionable causes will never vote Conservative regardless of whether Conservative policy is pro or anti homosexual marriage. Could Cameron be replaced without triggering an election before the Conservatives are ready for it? Is Cameron really a Euro Federalist and just wants to destroy the Conservative party?
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Quote:Apologies for the paucity of posts Well thank god for that....the silence was beginning to get a tad worrying. So here we are discussing matters daily re Cameron and something in the bubble we never discuss is about to sink him....that's life.
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Rank: Administration
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Originally Posted by: vincent  Quote:Apologies for the paucity of posts Well thank god for that....the silence was beginning to get a tad worrying. So here we are discussing matters daily re Cameron and something in the bubble we never discuss is about to sink him....that's life.  Bit fraught ... late night meetings, and early start. Sorry about that!
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Originally Posted by: richard  Originally Posted by: vincent  Quote:Apologies for the paucity of posts Well thank god for that....the silence was beginning to get a tad worrying. So here we are discussing matters daily re Cameron and something in the bubble we never discuss is about to sink him....that's life.  Bit fraught ... late night meetings, and early start. Sorry about that! No probs.....hope we get to hear all the latest gossip from amongst our "betters". Edited by user 13 December 2012 18:02:46(UTC)
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It's fascinating.
I think what happened is that Cameron saw this as a nice little progressive liberal project, which he could point to as him doing something on principle and which would piss off a few of the Turnip Taliban - a measure of success in Dave's view.
Very few were pressing for it, there have been civil partnerships for a time, a significant minority was against it, most people couldn't care less.
As the project has continued there have been more and more difficulties and compromises and kludges, to the extent that the original objectives, to the extent they existed, are completely muddied. However, Dave has sunk so much capital into it that he can't let go.
The effect on people who couldn't care less is to make them ask what the hell he's playing at when there have to be more important matters, and ask whether he's altogether in touch with reality.
I've seen the same thing happen with disaster IT projects. They start with the feasibility, risks and rewards and return on investment being glossed over because some manager wants it. One problem appears after another and the fixes each cause another load of problems. It rapidly becomes a mess of firefighting, but it goes on a long time because the manager can't admit he's wrong and so much money has been wasted already.
Other explanations:
He's lost it and this is displacement activity.
He hasn't lost it and this is a smokescreen for something.
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 1 user thanked comet for this useful post.
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I am somebody who used to belong to the Tory Party but left when my membership ran out a few months after the election when it being apparent the course Cameron was taking. I do remember you going on about Cameron before the election 2010 and seeing through him. I could as well but just wanted Brown out. Now I am afraid to say that if Labour do not win the election in 2015 then they really will need to have f*cked up big time; or there is a massive improvement in the UK economy between now and 2015. Then of course there is the EU and who knows how that will pan out next week let alone by 2015. So I think that certainly Cameron is in for a torrid time over the next few years. Will any of his MPs defect to UKIP? Will that turn into a flood? Will the turnout in the council elections be abysmal? Will Scotland vote for independence? UKIP are very possibly going to be the largest party at the European elections in 2014 which would give Cameron a headache. I do honestly feel that from 2015 when Milliband is PM and Balls is chancellor, we are going to head further into the mire. But then, would we be any better off under Cameron?
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Just a thought. This gay marriage thingy could be part of EU Diversity as a similar but less fraught discussion is going on in France at the moment, so unlikely to be a coincidence. There has even been a mention on France 2 that Cameron has passed a law for gay marriage.
Perhaps, to keep in with the Colleagues, he does not have any choice on this.
Just wondering.
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Originally Posted by: thespecialone  Now I am afraid to say that if Labour do not win the election in 2015 then they really will need to have f*cked up big time
On the present showing, all Miliband has to do is to say as little as possible and let it drop into his lap.
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Originally Posted by: Constantinople  Just a thought. This gay marriage thingy could be part of EU Diversity as a similar but less fraught discussion is going on in France at the moment, so unlikely to be a coincidence. There has even been a mention on France 2 that Cameron has passed a law for gay marriage.
Perhaps, to keep in with the Colleagues, he does not have any choice on this.
Just wondering. Yes, It would make sense if this was an EU project and being introduced one province at a time. Just bad luck on Cameron’s part to be picked to lead...what is the question Napoleon was supposed to ask before promoting a general?
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I don't think that the rabid Trots...... old scum, nu scum back to old scum party are a shoe in at the next GE, far from it.
Miliband and his bottom feeders, are so far removed from the reality of day to day living and public consciousness - Dave is more clued in.
What is a problem particularly for the Red Tory clique. The Lib dhimms have had their day, many pink Tories are drifting back to the scum party and it is difficult for the Red Tories to stem the scum tide but it [2015 G.E.] is anything but cut and dried.
As I have said before and will repeat now, the 2014 EUropean elections will focus Tory minds very considerably and post a thrashing at the hands of Farage's Westerham-rules-OK gang ........the true blue brigade.
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Originally Posted by: thespecialone  Will any of his MPs defect to UKIP? Will that turn into a flood? If the coalition loses its majority it could trigger an election this is why it has not happened.
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Lots of good comments above with which I agree.
As I see it this whole issue of 'Gay marriage' just proves that the bubble that the likes of Cameron are in must be impervious to public opinion.
So long as our elite political class carry on pandering to the likes of the gay and green lobby we will never be governed in a coherent way.
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Quote:[...] but why is Cameron alienating the Conservative’s core supporters? The theory of needing to win the Centre (as defined by our political class) has become dogma but this depends on assuming you don’t lose more of your core support than you gain from the so-called centre.[...] They get together and examine the results of the latest 'focus group' and figure that they can scale that up to the general population. Truth to be told, the disconnect is growing at such a rate that if AH were standing for election then he would get voted in just to be rid of them. They stand for whatever they are convinced is popular this week. "These are my principles - if you don't like them ... well... I have others". I'm living in hope of a backlash. Not holding my breath though.
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Originally Posted by: Constantinople  Just a thought. This gay marriage thingy could be part of EU Diversity as a similar but less fraught discussion is going on in France at the moment, so unlikely to be a coincidence. There has even been a mention on France 2 that Cameron has passed a law for gay marriage.
Perhaps, to keep in with the Colleagues, he does not have any choice on this.
Just wondering. There's a story about on the WWW this has come from the UN and filtered down through the EU. It's also going on in the US. I haven't chased it up. It doesn't seem to be formally articulated as a directive or we would have heard all about it. It seems most likely that this is largely Dave's own initiative and if he hadn't wanted it he could have deflected it. I think this was just a trendy direction in progressive circles and Dave is faced with the choice between looking a prat in the eyes of his chatting circle, or looking a prat in the eyes of the world at large, and Dave being a Bubble Dweller has tended towards pleasing his pals. Now he's out on a limb.
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'Is there a Case for Same-Sex Marriage' by R.S Harris has been recommended as essential reading. http://www.anglican-main...says-new-in-depth-study/Never was a book so needed in times such as this. THE WRITING IS ON THE WALL Equal Marriage is being wilfully and recklessly steamrollered through government today, Gays will not be content with marriage as they were never content with simply being tolerated from 1969 when homosexuality was first decriminalised. Even then voices predicted that inevitably homosexuals would eat up more and more territory until it dominated society completely. And so it has happened. The gay lobby, Stonewall, and our government who are firmly controlled by homosexual and lesbian MPs and friends, like Cameron, are insisting that instead of gays assimilating and being equal to us, it is we who must conform to their standards of truth and morality. The definition of marriage will now be dictated by them.
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Originally Posted by: Ravenscar  I don't think that the rabid Trots...... old scum, nu scum back to old scum party are a shoe in at the next GE, far from it.
Miliband and his bottom feeders, are so far removed from the reality of day to day living and public consciousness - Dave is more clued in.
But most voting is tribal, not concerned with what the parties offer, how practical it is, how much they contributed to the current mess and whether their manifesto commitments are worth a bean, leave alone the underlying political philosophy. Cameron is pissing off the Conservative tribe in spades. partly by doing things they don't want and partly by doing nothing they do want and wasting his time on things like this.
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Originally Posted by: EU3x2  [quote][...]
They get together and examine the results of the latest 'focus group' and figure that they can scale that up to the general population.
The problem with focus groups is they can only work in a society that considers individuals have a right to hold opinions that differ from what is considered “acceptable”. We have created a situation where people feel they must conform. Remember if you accept opinions can be politically correct it follows there are opinions that are incorrect and therefore people will be reluctant to own up to. That does not mean they won’t vote in “incorrect” ways.
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Isn't this turmoil exciting? Party politics is such fun.
Who's in? Who's out? Who cares? It's always the same crew.
The centre ground has been a veritable Atacama for a long time now, and as for the right wing, that's a distant continent on the far side of an ideological ocean.
If Mr Cameron hasn't finished dismantling the UK by the time he departs, doubtless his successor will continue the good work. And I think we can all rely on Mr Balls to do a thorough job at the Treasury if it should be given into his hands.
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Originally Posted by: Ravenscar  I don't think that the rabid Trots...... old scum, nu scum back to old scum party are a shoe in at the next GE, far from it.
Agreed. In 1982 Thatcher was as unlikely to win re-election (according to the chattering classes) as Cameron is today. The perceived wisdom is that the Falklands war saved her bacon but I'm not so sure. Nevertheless, maybe Cameron needs just such a seismic event to win in 2015. Early in/out referendum anyone?
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