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richard
#1 Posted : 11 December 2012 21:24:58(UTC)
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BBC political editor Nick Robinson tells us that it is nearly a year since David Cameron went to Brussels and "found himself isolated in Europe at a summit determining the EU's future".

That is typical of the level of political commentary we get in this country – not that its much better elsewhere – which is why the media can never be taken as a serious player when it comes to understanding what it going in on EU politics.

But when it comes to the low-brow personality politics that dominate the British scene, Robinson is as good a guide as any, alongside Brogan and other dross who specialise more in the gossip than the reality of politics.

View full article here
JO
#2 Posted : 11 December 2012 21:49:47(UTC)
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Well, indulging in tantric sex might account for why he doesn't know if his backside is bored, punched, drilled or counter-sunk, I suppose.

The mind boggles!BigGrin
Jo
James102
#3 Posted : 11 December 2012 22:13:36(UTC)
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We are, unlike Norway, a major market for the rest of the EU.It is worth £16 billion a month to them. We consistently run a massive trade deficit with the rest of the EU---does anyone seriously think they would risk interrupting that trade when it so much to their advantage?
Government by Fax? If Japan decides only blue teapots can be exported to them is that government by fax? If we leave they are just another market, not our federal government.
Germany and the Netherlands look at the funding gap that would be left if the UK leaves, they are realistic enough to know France won’t make up the difference, no wonder they are pressurizing their supporters in the UK to muddy the waters. This will be a dirty and deceitful campaign and we know who will be behind the deceit.
TheBoilingFrog
#4 Posted : 11 December 2012 22:31:33(UTC)
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Government by fax...? Have these people not been aware that technology has moved on? Surely it's now 'edicts by email', if they're going to use decades old arguments you'd thought they could have updated the terminology. How are you supposed to brainwash the young by referring to out-of-date technology?
richard
#5 Posted : 11 December 2012 22:54:07(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: James102 Go to Quoted Post
We are, unlike Norway, a major market for the rest of the EU.It is worth £16 billion a month to them. We consistently run a massive trade deficit with the rest of the EU---does anyone seriously think they would risk interrupting that trade when it so much to their advantage?
Government by Fax? If Japan decides only blue teapots can be exported to them is that government by fax? If we leave they are just another market, not our federal government.
Germany and the Netherlands look at the funding gap that would be left if the UK leaves, they are realistic enough to know France won’t make up the difference, no wonder they are pressurizing their supporters in the UK to muddy the waters. This will be a dirty and deceitful campaign and we know who will be behind the deceit.




The EU member states are bound by treaty law ... if we abrogate the treaty, we are no longer in the internal market. Any goods imported into the internal market from outside the internal market are subject to entry checks, and must be directed through a designated port for that purpose - unless and until we negotiate a free trade or other agreement with the EU. There are no designated ports and it would take time to organise a system. Until then, export to the Eu would be very slow and very difficult.



Ravenscar
#6 Posted : 12 December 2012 00:53:24(UTC)
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Quote:
Powell, writing in the Financial Tines tells us we should "listen to the experts" – i.e., the Foreign Office mandarins. They know better than backbench Tory MPs what is negotiable and what is not.



It would seem to me, that those frightfully liberal and bright young things at the FCO have been running British domestic and foreign policy for far too long.

If it is true and I think the suspicion is based in sound intell' . That, the great FO panjandrums after the war, deemed that our destiny lay across the channel, not with weltpolitik and Empire and do not forget - we were put under considerable pressure from our main ally, post the Suez debacle but also since the Iron curtain had descended across eastern Europe.

Result - Britain's future, would be more secure deep set in the embrace of the incipient European Coal and Steel community - which everybody knew [in the polity] was the basis and destined to become something coalescing into a much more federal entity. Yes indeed, a "grand projet" - which everybody in the FO publicly denied vehemently and privately gloried in the foreknowledge and bringing to fruitition. Historically, in the 50s stuffed full of Marxist sympathising Oxbridge grads - Europe was a no brainer for the FCO pro cheese eaters and we became the surrender monkeys.
And now, Pro Araby, anti Israel, pro Obama, still enamoured with the EU and still loony Francophiles. Groaning with SOAS grads, some of them working for other 'higher authorities' both terrestrial and spiritual - Britain's interests are the last thing on the minds at the FCO - if indeed British interests ever [a top priority] were after the war we were supposed to have helped to win.

Now, with the FCO as it is and under current secretary of State - Vichy boy baldie - we still have no chance of coming out [of the EU] until someone poisons their bananas.
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letmethink on 12/12/2012(UTC)
Watchet
#7 Posted : 12 December 2012 05:52:11(UTC)
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Quote:
...'government by fax' – instructions from Brussels to which there is no reply".

Isn't this frequently the situation now, except when any of our all-quisling British governments very briefly find some very unaccustomed courage from somewhere to once in a very rare while say 'No' to the EU?

Watchet
richard
#8 Posted : 12 December 2012 06:42:37(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Watchet Go to Quoted Post
Quote:
...'government by fax' – instructions from Brussels to which there is no reply".

Isn't this frequently the situation now, except when any of our all-quisling British governments very briefly find some very unaccustomed courage from somewhere to once in a very rare while say 'No' to the EU?

Watchet



A considerable number of times we have observed that industry and commerce (especially the corporate sector) actually likes regulation, profits from it and actively canvasses for it. In fact, much of the economic regulation originates from that sector, through lobbying, trade bodies and standards organisations.

Other regulation comes from unions and then a huge driver is the raft of NGOs, about which we have written an enormous amount. Much of the rest comes from governments themselves ... for instance, most of the EU food hygiene law comes from Britain, introduced in the wake of the salmonella in eggs and listeria scares.

Then, and recently, I have written about the "diqule" and the global and regional treaty organisations, where much of the legislation is framed at a conceptual stage, and where the EU is very much downstream, simply processing agreed standards and initiatives into actionable form.

Thus, the very idea of "fax law" is a travesty. It completely misrepresents the legislative process, and and indeed the EU, almost to the extent of becoming a childish pastiche. "Brussels" is not a big, bad bunch of bureaucrats, endlessly plotting against Britain, but one part of an increasingly global nexus of influence which is re-writing the nature of governance, and thereby undermining any pretence that we are or have any aspirations to be a democracy.

It really is about time, therefore, that we grew up and looked at the world as it is, and tried to understand what is actually going on, rather than indulge in childish, simplistic fantasies and self-indulgent rants.

Edited by user 12 December 2012 08:29:51(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Ravenscar
#9 Posted : 12 December 2012 08:20:31(UTC)
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Quote:
self-indulgent rants.



Maybe and maybe some see barriers where there are none. Iceland did the right thing and told the world and everyone to F**k Off - pariah they might be but life goes on in Reykjavik.
richard
#10 Posted : 12 December 2012 08:29:02(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Ravenscar Go to Quoted Post
Quote:
self-indulgent rants.



Maybe and maybe some see barriers where there are none. Iceland did the right thing and told the world and everyone to F**k Off - pariah they might be but life goes on in Reykjavik.



Simplistic solutions are very attractive, but Iceland is a nation that is actually smaller than a British local authority. A larger, more complex economy requires much greater engagement with the international community.

Aurelian
#11 Posted : 12 December 2012 08:50:08(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: TheBoilingFrog Go to Quoted Post
Government by fax...? Have these people not been aware that technology has moved on? Surely it's now 'edicts by email', if they're going to use decades old arguments you'd thought they could have updated the terminology. How are you supposed to brainwash the young by referring to out-of-date technology?
BigGrin
I believe email has also been discarded by the young.
Nowadays, it's all text messaging and social networking.

Tariffs by texting and treaties by Twitter, perhaps?

Given the harm that a politician can do with a mere quill and a few drops of Quink, one shudders at the potential for mischief inherent in these modernities.
Please hold: your call is important to us.
richard
#12 Posted : 12 December 2012 08:56:04(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Aurelian Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: TheBoilingFrog Go to Quoted Post
Government by fax...? Have these people not been aware that technology has moved on? Surely it's now 'edicts by email', if they're going to use decades old arguments you'd thought they could have updated the terminology. How are you supposed to brainwash the young by referring to out-of-date technology?
BigGrin
I believe email has also been discarded by the young.
Nowadays, it's all text messaging and social networking.

Tariffs by texting and treaties by Twitter, perhaps?

Given the harm that a politician can do with a mere quill and a few drops of Quink, one shudders at the potential for mischief inherent in these modernities.



I suspect that Twitter is a passing fad, just as texting is becoming. Soon enough, we'll be back to primordial grunts. Meanwhile, the business of government will go on, where there are still a substantial number of MPs (and MEPs) who do not access their own e-mails and get their staff to print them off, from the combined printer/fax machine. Modernity is for the plebs. I am sure that, in the Treasury, you will still be able to find a stock of quill pens.

Ravenscar
#13 Posted : 12 December 2012 08:56:24(UTC)
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New Zealand does OK, signs its own deals and stays independent, free and proud of it, it can be done.

The EU binds countries with myriad layers of useless arcane rules and bureaucratic claptrap, easily sundered if the will is there.

World trade, is usually a quid pro quo, you have something they want and they have something that we want - the world wants access to our market and we want reciprocal admittance, "pariah" states still trade - it depends on how much the other trading nation desires your wares and inner market.
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flyinthesky on 12/12/2012(UTC)
richard
#14 Posted : 12 December 2012 09:00:23(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Ravenscar Go to Quoted Post
New Zealand does OK, signs its own deals and stays independent, free and proud of it, it can be done.

The EU binds countries with myriad layers of useless arcane rules and bureaucratic claptrap, easily sundered if the will is there.

World trade, is usually a quid pro quo, you have something they want and they have something that we want - the world wants access to our market and we want reciprocal admittance, "pariah" states still trade - it depends on how much the other trading nation desires your wares and inner market.



And when New Zealand exports meat to the EU member states (including the UK), it does so using EEC approved slaughterhouses, supervised by EEC-approved vets, with the animals reared in accordance with EU animal health directives. No one country that engages in the world, is free from the rigour of international regulation. If you want "independence" in that sense, go to North Korea.


World trade is facilitated by regulation ... it is a fact of life and, therefore, we must learn to live with it and use it to our advantage.

Edited by user 12 December 2012 09:01:56(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

letmethink
#15 Posted : 12 December 2012 09:58:44(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: richard Go to Quoted Post



A considerable number of times we have observed that industry and commerce (especially the corporate sector) actually likes regulation, profits from it and actively canvasses for it. In fact, much of the economic regulation originates from that sector, through lobbying, trade bodies and standards organisations.



in my experience this is particularly (if not exclusively) true the larger the corporation - especially multi-national ones.

Layers of regulation makes business progressively untenable the further down the corporate food chain you find yourself, as the overhead of implementation and compliance becomes an ever-increasing percentage of your business. Regulation therefore tends to squeeze out the smaller business to the very great advantage of larger companies.

Only a tiny number of very large corporations did not start life as a very small business. Now they've got there they want to keep the territory to themselves.
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flyinthesky on 12/12/2012(UTC), Ravenscar on 12/12/2012(UTC)
graham wood
#16 Posted : 12 December 2012 10:03:56(UTC)
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Quote:
"David Cameron went to Brussels and "found himself isolated in Europe"


Its a toss up really as to whether it is better for him to be "isolated" in Europe, or in the UK.
He wins on both counts, but he does'nt understand that yet.
James102
#17 Posted : 12 December 2012 10:26:39(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: richard Go to Quoted Post
[quote=James102;7388] Until then, export to the Eu would be very slow and very difficult.





As would imports if we wanted to be awkward and we run a trade deficit so slowing trade would not be in the interests of the rest of the EU.
We are such an important market and these are such hard economic times for the core economies using the Euro that a trade war is the last thing they need.
We are their customer and customers are normally in the better bargaining position.


richard
#18 Posted : 12 December 2012 11:00:44(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: letmethink Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: richard Go to Quoted Post



A considerable number of times we have observed that industry and commerce (especially the corporate sector) actually likes regulation, profits from it and actively canvasses for it. In fact, much of the economic regulation originates from that sector, through lobbying, trade bodies and standards organisations.



in my experience this is particularly (if not exclusively) true the larger the corporation - especially multi-national ones.

Layers of regulation makes business progressively untenable the further down the corporate food chain you find yourself, as the overhead of implementation and compliance becomes an ever-increasing percentage of your business. Regulation therefore tends to squeeze out the smaller business to the very great advantage of larger companies.

Only a tiny number of very large corporations did not start life as a very small business. Now they've got there they want to keep the territory to themselves.




To an extent ... bolshi and/or well-connected trade associations can sometimes punch above their weight. But yes, the true enemy of enterprise is the corporate lobbyist.
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flyinthesky on 12/12/2012(UTC)
richard
#19 Posted : 12 December 2012 11:02:59(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: James102 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: richard Go to Quoted Post
[quote=James102;7388] Until then, export to the Eu would be very slow and very difficult.





As would imports if we wanted to be awkward and we run a trade deficit so slowing trade would not be in the interests of the rest of the EU.
We are such an important market and these are such hard economic times for the core economies using the Euro that a trade war is the last thing they need.
We are their customer and customers are normally in the better bargaining position.







It is not a question of "need". EU member states are bound by single market (i.e., EU) legislation. They have to obey it ... it is their law. If we place ourselves outside the single market, then entry rules apply. End of.

F U Fed Up
#20 Posted : 12 December 2012 12:00:28(UTC)
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I'm with James...we are too big a mkt to mess around with...if we decide to leave then rules will be bent.

This whole idea of not being able to leave, because we have too many existing agreements and they all must be redone before we can leave is bureaucratic bunkum. If we leave then the sun will still come up tomorrow and they will want to sell their goods to us and if someone with a clipboard says sorry the rules say you cant, then they will be told to eff "orf.

Just how hot would the phone be, between Mercedes, BMW, Bosch, Seimens, Volkswagen, Stihl etc and Merkel, if some fool tried that on.
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Nottoobrite on 12/12/2012(UTC)
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