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richard		#1 Posted : 08 December 2012 21:43:57(UTC)
Rank: Administration Groups: Registered, Administrators Joined: 16/04/2012(UTC) Posts: 3,379 Location: Bradford Thanks: 113 times Was thanked: 345 time(s) in 286 post(s)		With the first piece in Booker's column loosely based on this, and a kiddie snatching story" dipping in the same well as this, it might have a familiar feel to EURef readers. And the third story also breaks in ground well-tilled by this blog. Booker here notes that, as the clamour grows for us to have a referendum on Britain's membership of the EU, we must wonder how much either of the two main camps emerging round this issue actually know about the EU. This is an extremely pertinent observation for, in the light of David Cameron and Boris Johnson seeming to agree on the way to deal with "Europe". Both favour the idea that we should be asked to choose between either the Government negotiating a "looser" relationship with the EU but staying in it, or voting to get out altogether. View full article here
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comet		#2 Posted : 08 December 2012 23:54:23(UTC)
Rank: Advanced Member Groups: Registered Joined: 20/07/2012(UTC) Posts: 646 Location: gloucestershire Thanks: 4 times Was thanked: 71 time(s) in 59 post(s)		Originally Posted by: richard This is an extremely pertinent observation for, in the light of David Cameron and Boris Johnson seeming to agree on the way to deal with "Europe". Both favour the idea that we should be asked to choose between either the Government negotiating a "looser" relationship with the EU but staying in it, or voting to get out altogether. It's rather like the Cast Iron Promise, it's a gesture they don't expect to deliver on, So, this is not altogether serious politics either.


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AndyBaxter		#3 Posted : 09 December 2012 08:58:50(UTC)
Rank: Member Groups: Registered Joined: 18/07/2012(UTC) Posts: 79 Location: North East Thanks: 30 times Was thanked: 19 time(s) in 12 post(s)		It's the blind dogmatic faith in the repeal of ECA 1973 that I find incredible to comprehend, The EUrophiles even the closet ones dressed up as EUrosceptics are easy to spot, BUT surely anyone with an ounce of functioning grey cells can see the utter nonsense that such an act would be? all we can do is repeat the message, challenge the dogma and convince through reason, intellect and argument those who do have some grey matter that still works. sadly some who have never been reasoned into their opinion will never be reasoned out of it. Ridicule and satire and a large ddose of common sense will prevail if enough of us keep at it. also The Harrogate Agenda as has been identified is the antithesis of the EU and incidentally the "extreme EUrosceptics"


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richard		#4 Posted : 09 December 2012 09:19:16(UTC)
Rank: Administration Groups: Registered, Administrators Joined: 16/04/2012(UTC) Posts: 3,379 Location: Bradford Thanks: 113 times Was thanked: 345 time(s) in 286 post(s)		Originally Posted by: AndyBaxter It's the blind dogmatic faith in the repeal of ECA 1973 that I find incredible to comprehend, The EUrophiles even the closet ones dressed up as EUrosceptics are easy to spot, BUT surely anyone with an ounce of functioning grey cells can see the utter nonsense that such an act would be? all we can do is repeat the message, challenge the dogma and convince through reason, intellect and argument those who do have some grey matter that still works. sadly some who have never been reasoned into their opinion will never be reasoned out of it. Ridicule and satire and a large ddose of common sense will prevail if enough of us keep at it. also The Harrogate Agenda as has been identified is the antithesis of the EU and incidentally the "extreme EUrosceptics" The trouble is that the extremists - should we call them the "fundamentalists"? - don't come out in the open. Torquil Dirk-Erickson, for instance, shies away from a debate on a public forum, and prefers to work through closed e-mail groups. They occasionally re-appear on newspaper comments, regurgitating their mantras, completely impervious to any arguments that have gone before. He is at it again today ... I fear, you are right ... we cannot argue with them. We just have to pursue our own line. Edited by user 09 December 2012 09:56:30(UTC) \| Reason: Not specified
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1 user thanked richard for this useful post.		john in cheshire on 09/12/2012(UTC)
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john in cheshire		#5 Posted : 09 December 2012 12:15:47(UTC)
Rank: Advanced Member Groups: Registered Joined: 25/07/2012(UTC) Posts: 64 Location: cheshire Thanks: 100 times Was thanked: 3 time(s) in 2 post(s)		Originally Posted by: richard Originally Posted by: AndyBaxter It's the blind dogmatic faith in the repeal of ECA 1973 that I find incredible to comprehend, The EUrophiles even the closet ones dressed up as EUrosceptics are easy to spot, BUT surely anyone with an ounce of functioning grey cells can see the utter nonsense that such an act would be? all we can do is repeat the message, challenge the dogma and convince through reason, intellect and argument those who do have some grey matter that still works. sadly some who have never been reasoned into their opinion will never be reasoned out of it. Ridicule and satire and a large ddose of common sense will prevail if enough of us keep at it. also The Harrogate Agenda as has been identified is the antithesis of the EU and incidentally the "extreme EUrosceptics" The trouble is that the extremists - should we call them the "fundamentalists"? - don't come out in the open. Torquil Dirk-Erickson, for instance, shies away from a debate on a public forum, and prefers to work through closed e-mail groups. They occasionally re-appear on newspaper comments, regurgitating their mantras, completely impervious to any arguments that have gone before. He is at it again today ... I fear, you are right ... we cannot argue with them. We just have to pursue our own line. The greatest danger is that we, collectively of like mind, become the Cassandra (or as I prefer to call it, Enoch Powell) of matters such as this.


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Flashman		#6 Posted : 09 December 2012 12:43:00(UTC)
Rank: Advanced Member Groups: Registered Joined: 20/07/2012(UTC) Posts: 78 Location: Worcestershire Thanks: 7 times Was thanked: 4 time(s) in 4 post(s)		We're not going to get a repeal of the ECA. We're not going to get Article 50 either. Instead we'll get a phoney Tory re-negotiation. http://www.telegraph.co....dum-on-EU-Boris-says.htm Instead of beating each other up can we please focus our fire on the lying, scumbag, europhile Tories ? Edited by user 09 December 2012 12:52:38(UTC) \| Reason: Not specified
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comet		#7 Posted : 09 December 2012 13:47:08(UTC)
Rank: Advanced Member Groups: Registered Joined: 20/07/2012(UTC) Posts: 646 Location: gloucestershire Thanks: 4 times Was thanked: 71 time(s) in 59 post(s)		Originally Posted by: Flashman Instead of beating each other up can we please focus our fire on the lying, scumbag, europhile Tories ? Yes, electorally, there's no point in the eurowithdrawalist doing anything other than vote UKIP and encouraging others to do the same. Whatever the misgivings about the way UKIP is doing things, it's at least pointing the right way. In general, unless you are completely satisfied with the eurosceptic credentials of your Conservative candidate, which means he will be one of a handful, there's no point in doing anything else.


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richard		#8 Posted : 09 December 2012 14:24:51(UTC)
Rank: Administration Groups: Registered, Administrators Joined: 16/04/2012(UTC) Posts: 3,379 Location: Bradford Thanks: 113 times Was thanked: 345 time(s) in 286 post(s)		Originally Posted by: Flashman We're not going to get a repeal of the ECA. We're not going to get Article 50 either. Instead we'll get a phoney Tory re-negotiation. http://www.telegraph.co....dum-on-EU-Boris-says.htm Instead of beating each other up can we please focus our fire on the lying, scumbag, europhile Tories ? There is a game afoot ... what do you think Booker is doing ... what do you think this blog is doing?
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