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EU politics: muddying the waters – part I

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richard		#1 Posted : 04 December 2012 17:33:45(UTC)
Rank: Administration Groups: Registered, Administrators Joined: 16/04/2012(UTC) Posts: 2,994 Location: Bradford Thanks: 96 times Was thanked: 305 time(s) in 254 post(s)		MPs "should ensure that they have a real understanding in how the EU works and what it does", says Tobias Ellwood, in a new propaganda pamphlet published by your friendly neighbourhood europhiles in Open Europe. I wasn't going to bother fisking the pamphlet. With a name like, "Upgrading UK influence in the European Union", this is typical of the Open Europe. Generally, it is part of their ongoing attempt to pretend that we can somehow improve matters between ourselves and the rest of the EU by embarking institutional and other changes. Anything short of quitting the EU they will try on. View full article here
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Shakassoc		#2 Posted : 04 December 2012 17:55:59(UTC)
Rank: Advanced Member Groups: Registered Joined: 18/07/2012(UTC) Posts: 75 Thanks: 6 times Was thanked: 3 time(s) in 3 post(s)		Originally Posted by: richard The devils have cast themselves as the angels, completely muddying the waters. View full article here The Apostle Paul (in his 2nd epistle to the Corinthians, Chap 11, Verses 13-15) wrote: For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into apostles of Christ. And no wonder! For Satan himself transforms himself into an angel of light. Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also transform themselves into ministers of righteousness, whose end will be according to their works.


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David Phipps		#3 Posted : 04 December 2012 19:44:11(UTC)
Rank: Advanced Member Groups: Registered Joined: 17/07/2012(UTC) Posts: 64 Location: Witney Was thanked: 3 time(s) in 3 post(s)		" But this is an MP I haven't met......" I have once and trust me, Richard, you are missing nowt - def a 'careerist'. You will recall he was at the forefront of Cameron's leadership bid and was appointed to the opposition whips office virtually immediately thereafter when Cameron won; put on the opposition front bench in 2007 and when Liam Fox lost his job, Ellwood got appointed PPS to Lidington. Adendum: 2015 and the following comment just appeared via my blog's email system: "I note that Richard North is unsure whether or not Ellwood is an "idiot". From my experience of meeting Ellwood whilst telling at a voting booth around the time of the post office closures, I was sure that he is an idiot when he refuted my claim that the troubles with the post office and Royal Mail were brought about, primarily, by the EU directives. He was adamant that the closures had nothing to do with the EU and seemed not to know anything about the various directives that were being brought into force by the government." Edited by user 04 December 2012 20:11:11(UTC) \| Reason: Not specified
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Flashman		#4 Posted : 04 December 2012 19:52:53(UTC)
Rank: Advanced Member Groups: Registered Joined: 20/07/2012(UTC) Posts: 74 Location: Worcestershire Thanks: 7 times Was thanked: 3 time(s) in 3 post(s)		http://www.telegraph.co....-could-be-scrapped.html# So now we are scrapping the state-of-the art American designed Apache (built in the UK by Westlands) in favour of buying the 2nd hand French/German Tiger helicopter.* Do the Tories have no shame? *(on the other handcould just be a MoD budget battle being played out in public)
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richard		#5 Posted : 04 December 2012 21:17:34(UTC)
Rank: Administration Groups: Registered, Administrators Joined: 16/04/2012(UTC) Posts: 2,994 Location: Bradford Thanks: 96 times Was thanked: 305 time(s) in 254 post(s)		Originally Posted by: Flashman http://www.telegraph.co....-could-be-scrapped.html# So now we are scrapping the state-of-the art American designed Apache (built in the UK by Westlands) in favour of buying the 2nd hand French/German Tiger helicopter.* Do the Tories have no shame? *(on the other handcould just be a MoD budget battle being played out in public) This is a total bollox story. The Apaches are Westland-built and the tech-support comes from Yeovil. It does not require tech support from the US. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AgustaWestland_Apache
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richard		#6 Posted : 04 December 2012 21:19:10(UTC)
Rank: Administration Groups: Registered, Administrators Joined: 16/04/2012(UTC) Posts: 2,994 Location: Bradford Thanks: 96 times Was thanked: 305 time(s) in 254 post(s)		Originally Posted by: David Phipps " But this is an MP I haven't met......" I have once and trust me, Richard, you are missing nowt - def a 'careerist'. You will recall he was at the forefront of Cameron's leadership bid and was appointed to the opposition whips office virtually immediately thereafter when Cameron won; put on the opposition front bench in 2007 and when Liam Fox lost his job, Ellwood got appointed PPS to Lidington. Adendum: 2015 and the following comment just appeared via my blog's email system: "I note that Richard North is unsure whether or not Ellwood is an "idiot". From my experience of meeting Ellwood whilst telling at a voting booth around the time of the post office closures, I was sure that he is an idiot when he refuted my claim that the troubles with the post office and Royal Mail were brought about, primarily, by the EU directives. He was adamant that the closures had nothing to do with the EU and seemed not to know anything about the various directives that were being brought into force by the government." That doesn't make him an idiot, but I take your point about a careerist ... although sometimes it is difficult to see the difference between the two.
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cjw1954		#7 Posted : 04 December 2012 21:39:04(UTC)
Rank: Advanced Member Groups: Registered Joined: 17/07/2012(UTC) Posts: 32 Location: London Thanks: 7 times		I was under the impression, until recently, that a Eurosceptic was someone who agreed with membership but didn't accept everything hook, line and sinker and was willing to put up a bit of a fight - hence sceptical rather than antithetical. Thus, I never considered myself to be one as I have always been totally opposed. Now it appears that it has to imply that you want withdrawal. I think this has come about because it's a handy word to use and there is no such short hand for someone who really does want withdrawal - other than patriot, I suppose. Never trust anyone called Tobias - or Oliver or Justin in my experience. Re. the Tiger/Tigre. I don't think they've made it work yet! How would money be saved by throwing away 60+ helicopters that work and buying ones that don't? Telegraph defence articles show why they should stick to be being the in-house magazine of the Middletons.


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Spider Lake		#8 Posted : 05 December 2012 09:00:51(UTC)
Rank: Advanced Member Groups: Registered Joined: 11/09/2012(UTC) Posts: 3 Location: Yorkshire Was thanked: 2 time(s) in 2 post(s)		Quote: " The problem is, though, that Ellwood then defines "euroscepticism" as complaints about "the lack of EU transparency and accountability", and "the transfer of powers and competence from Westminster". Crucially, he then asserts that, "despite all this 'euroscepticism' there is recognition by all three main political parties that Britain must remain a member of the club". " And there you have it: It's not what the people of Britain want, but what the political parties want that counts. As you have rightly pointed out many times - We do not live in a democracy.

1 user thanked Spider Lake for this useful post.		flyinthesky on 05/12/2012(UTC)
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