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richard
#1 Posted : 03 December 2012 22:54:34(UTC)
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During the many years that we have been writing about wind factories, one of the main headline issues has been the calm periods, when little power is produced.

Coming up fast on the agenda, though, is the opposite end of the spectrum. The windmills produce power when it's not wanted – the so-called "wrong time" power. And what is remarkable is the sheer scale of the problem, recorded in Germany by the Financial Times Deutschland (FTD) at about 407 gigawatt hours, "enough to supply a city with 100,000 households for 15 months".

As the amount of renewable electricity increases, this problem can only get worse. Thus, we already have the Bornholm experiment and the "EcoGrid EU", trialing systems which they hope will balance supply and demand. Planners also hope to enlist electric cars in the scheme, using them to store surplus electricity.

View full article here

Dodgy Geezer
#2 Posted : 04 December 2012 00:22:13(UTC)
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It requires mathematical consideration which is gained at about the 12-year-old level to understand that provisioning supply sufficient to meet the requirement to generate enough electricity during average or low wind periods MUST result in more energy than can be consumed during high wind periods.

The actual mathematical manipulation required is within the reach of an 8/9 year old.

So these issues can not have been unforeseen. They have been suppressed. Because engineers are not running infrastructure policy. Activists are.

The price of freedom is eternal vigilance. But vigilance is of little use when your warnings are ignored or actively suppressed. By definition, an activist in pursuit of an ideal will always be able to bring greater concentration and investment into changing society than an average man, no matter how vigilant. History has numerous instances - the French Revolution and the English Civil War are examples - where activists overthrew a social system in pursuit of an ideal and then saw that process descend into a dictatorship which consumed the activists themselves.

CS Lewis has a comment on the merits of a savage dictatorship compared to the ministrations of a benevolent set of social activists, with which I am sure you are all familiar...
Ravenscar
#3 Posted : 04 December 2012 00:24:14(UTC)
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It's causing all sorts of outage problems, transmission power lines and the grid as a whole cannot cope with the electrical power surges. The whole operation, is a bloody nightmare, the substations are blowing and there is meltdown and overload galore - old grid systems in Germany and here in Britain we will not be able to cope - it will be far worse, the bird mincer dream needs cutting off at the knees and along with Ed Divy's.

Once more the law of unintended consequences trumps green wet dreams.

What a surprise.

Edited by user 04 December 2012 00:26:39(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

William Gruff
#4 Posted : 04 December 2012 03:53:45(UTC)
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I started by laughing at this article but my laughter rapidly turned to boiling piss. I have experience of night storage heaters, not by choice, and I recall that typing post graduate essays in winter, while trying to survive on ten pounds per week for food, bus fares and photocopying, was a bloody sight cheaper with numb fingers and multiple layers of faux wool than paying ninety pounds per month to run one fucking radiator and sixty pounds per month to buy gas from the landlady. Night storage heaters were not a good idea: feeling that one should be sweating at breakfast and freezing one's bollocks off at tea time, for more than twice one's food budget, is not a commercially viable proposition.

Edited by user 04 December 2012 04:00:11(UTC)  | Reason: Bah bloody humbug!

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aster on 04/12/2012(UTC)
Aurelian
#5 Posted : 04 December 2012 08:36:00(UTC)
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I view this latest development with considerable alarm, since I rely on night storage heaters in my all-electric house.

In October, the night rate here was increased by 15%, indicating that the supplier is most definitely not concerned to foster the uptake of excess output in the small hours.

The thought that the supplier might be able to turn off my heating at a whim, leaving me to freeze, is frightening. Equally chilling is the thought that my heaters might be deemed illegal.
Please hold: your call is important to us.
Dodgy Geezer
#6 Posted : 04 December 2012 11:29:45(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Aurelian Go to Quoted Post
Equally chilling is the thought that my heaters might be deemed illegal.


I wouldn't worry about that. The expansion of knee-jerk legislation over the last several years means that you're almost certainly regularly doing many 'illegal' things in your daily life anyway. For instance, anyone who thinks that the war in Afghanistan is a bit pointless is probably guilty of 'glorifying terrorism' (?)

Politicians since Blair have successfully provided 'leadership' which has resulted in:

  • A widespread contempt for the law

  • The assumption that bare-faced lies are acceptable

  • An operational process which renders certain sections of the community (mainly the police, bailiffs and politicians) above the law


I am sure that others here can add to the list....

F U Fed Up
#7 Posted : 04 December 2012 11:37:19(UTC)
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I guess this latest lunacy is due to checking the growth patterns of electric car sales and finding that they have declined from negligible to non existant .

We could solve a lot of problems if we used Greenies as connectors between their beloved re-newables and the grid.
ELF
#8 Posted : 04 December 2012 12:11:15(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: F U Fed Up Go to Quoted Post
We could solve a lot of problems if we used Greenies as connectors between their beloved re-newables and the grid.

The MTTF would be low. But I guess there'd be no shortage of spares.

Edited by user 04 December 2012 12:15:14(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Aurelian
#9 Posted : 04 December 2012 12:22:45(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Dodgy Geezer Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Aurelian Go to Quoted Post
Equally chilling is the thought that my heaters might be deemed illegal.


I wouldn't worry about that. The expansion of knee-jerk legislation over the last several years means that you're almost certainly regularly doing many 'illegal' things in your daily life anyway. For instance, anyone who thinks that the war in Afghanistan is a bit pointless is probably guilty of 'glorifying terrorism' (?)

Politicians since Blair have successfully provided 'leadership' which has resulted in:

  • A widespread contempt for the law

  • The assumption that bare-faced lies are acceptable

  • An operational process which renders certain sections of the community (mainly the police, bailiffs and politicians) above the law


I am sure that others here can add to the list....


Guilty as charged and yes, we live in a post-Blair world now, alas.

I hadn't expected our civilisation to destroy itself in this way, nor to do it so rapidly.

Please hold: your call is important to us.
D W Buxton
#10 Posted : 04 December 2012 12:45:25(UTC)
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Another totally ridiculous plan, repeating history in the hope it will give a different result this time.
May I ask for information on these stupid wind turbines. I know a little about electricity and have regularly in my past working life built control systems, single and three phase. But I am puzzled, how does the generator in a wind turbine work? A standard one with a prime mover running at a constant speed, no problem. But wind turbines do not run at anything like constant speed. So, how much electronic gubbins is in the beast, bearing in mind that every change in an energy state has losses associated with it. How do they get electricity for the grid which if I remember right is at about 440 volts and 50 hertz? Sorry to ask but help would be appreciated, I may be old but I can still learn" thank you in anticipation

Derek

Edited by user 04 December 2012 12:46:58(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

richard
#11 Posted : 04 December 2012 13:48:14(UTC)
Richard

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Originally Posted by: D W Buxton Go to Quoted Post
Another totally ridiculous plan, repeating history in the hope it will give a different result this time.
May I ask for information on these stupid wind turbines. I know a little about electricity and have regularly in my past working life built control systems, single and three phase. But I am puzzled, how does the generator in a wind turbine work? A standard one with a prime mover running at a constant speed, no problem. But wind turbines do not run at anything like constant speed. So, how much electronic gubbins is in the beast, bearing in mind that every change in an energy state has losses associated with it. How do they get electricity for the grid which if I remember right is at about 440 volts and 50 hertz? Sorry to ask but help would be appreciated, I may be old but I can still learn" thank you in anticipation

Derek




This tells you all you need to know ... I think.

http://www.nrel.gov/docs/fy04osti/36265.pdf

When you have read it and understood it, could you please tell me what it means?
richard
#12 Posted : 04 December 2012 13:53:15(UTC)
Richard

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Originally Posted by: richard Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: D W Buxton Go to Quoted Post
Another totally ridiculous plan, repeating history in the hope it will give a different result this time.
May I ask for information on these stupid wind turbines. I know a little about electricity and have regularly in my past working life built control systems, single and three phase. But I am puzzled, how does the generator in a wind turbine work? A standard one with a prime mover running at a constant speed, no problem. But wind turbines do not run at anything like constant speed. So, how much electronic gubbins is in the beast, bearing in mind that every change in an energy state has losses associated with it. How do they get electricity for the grid which if I remember right is at about 440 volts and 50 hertz? Sorry to ask but help would be appreciated, I may be old but I can still learn" thank you in anticipation

Derek




This tells you all you need to know ... I think.

http://www.nrel.gov/docs/fy04osti/36265.pdf

with a primer here ...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wind_turbine_design

When you have read it and understood it, could you please tell me what it means?

techno
#13 Posted : 04 December 2012 18:53:27(UTC)
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I have night storage heaters in my flat and I'm rather fond of them.

They are silent, require no maintenance, never break down and they keep the flat warm all day and night. I just have to keep an eye on my electronic temperature gauge, with its sensor poked out of the window, so that I can see when the temperature outside is falling or rising and alter the settings accordingly.

But I get a constant feed of Economy 7 electricity all night. Not too keen on the idea of sometimes getting some electricity and sometimes not.
richard
#14 Posted : 04 December 2012 18:57:17(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: techno Go to Quoted Post
I have night storage heaters in my flat and I'm rather fond of them.

They are silent, require no maintenance, never break down and they keep the flat warm all day and night. I just have to keep an eye on my electronic temperature gauge, with its sensor poked out of the window, so that I can see when the temperature outside is falling or rising and alter the settings accordingly.

But I get a constant feed of Economy 7 electricity all night. Not too keen on the idea of sometimes getting some electricity and sometimes not.



That's the point ... you only get power when it's available.

citroenchris
#15 Posted : 05 December 2012 01:58:00(UTC)
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I rented a place years ago with a relic of a storage heater, about the size of a small frodge, it was great, almost cool untill the thermostat opened and then it kept most of the house warm, then I had new ones, ???? crap baking hot in the morning and cold by 9 pm when I got home, had to cover them with a duvet!
Why dont they use the windmills to pump water uphill and store it there?? top up the resivoirs for hydro!
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