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richard
#1 Posted : 21 November 2012 12:19:48(UTC)
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Allister Heath, one of the better journalists in the pack, is pondering on why it is that entrepreneurs and executives who excel at understanding what consumers want to buy become utterly baffled at their behaviour once they step into the polling booth.

This is in the context of the "thorny issue" of the UK's relationship with "Europe" (he means the European Union), where business support for continued membership of the EU "perfectly symbolises how out of touch so many City grandees have become".

Here, I think he is being rather kind about the degree of understanding of consumer needs. Most corporates sell a limited range of commodities or services, the marketing of which require little consumer understanding.

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Julian Williams
#2 Posted : 21 November 2012 13:07:44(UTC)
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Very well made case.

Sadly big business is no longer run by entrepreneurs with expertise in their field of manufacture or service, the fat cats on the boards of these enterprises are like career politicians; squeezing as much out of the system for themselves as quickly as possible, with little interest in the long term future of the company or the people who the company serves.
Dodgy Geezer
#3 Posted : 21 November 2012 13:43:55(UTC)
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Quote:
Here, I think he is being rather kind about the degree of understanding of consumer needs. Most corporates sell a limited range of commodities or services, the marketing of which requires little consumer understanding.

Their business models usually involve exploiting semi-monopolistic power and the economies of scale, rigging the market and relying on a high churn rate amongst competitors, enabling replacements to be acquired as they lose a proportion of their own customers through shoddy service and products, and indifference to consumer needs...


There is some truth here, but there is also a whole facet of social behaviour which is not considered. Unsurprisingly, for it is missed out of nearly every critique of political structures which suggest improvements based on reason. This could be called, for want of a better word, 'inherent human self-interest'.

A business is often presented as 'wanting to make profit'. This is essential for long-term viability, of course, and when a business starts you will usually find single entrepreneurs running organisations where every aspect is dedicated to profitability.

Once a business has grown, however, it is run by a group of people with slightly different objectives. Profit is important, of course. But if, for instance, a company appoints an IT director to the board, it is now being partially run by a person to whom the continued growth of the IT division is important. If a course of action needs to be taken which is good for the company but bad for the IT division, you can expect the IT director to fight it....

Once a company has created an 'EU Regulation Compliance' division, or a 'Climate Change' division, do not expect that company to throw its hands up in glee at that prospect of being able to close these divisions down. Indeed, since the first people to become aware of this possibility are usually the divisions concerned, expect the initial corporate response to be distinctly negative....
J A King
#4 Posted : 21 November 2012 13:48:23(UTC)
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I think the same thing. When I hear the word Entrepreneur I think of the little man or woman, running a small business consisting of less than 15 employee's. Trying desperately to stay above the water line at the moment.

One thing is always certain with these types of business though, you as the customer will always get a far better product and better service.
gareth
#5 Posted : 21 November 2012 14:34:34(UTC)
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It occurs to me that the EEA is pretty much what the UK was sold in 1972 but never got. Might that be why it doesn't merit much of a mention from Westminster and the media when the in or out thing is considered?
John Archer
#6 Posted : 21 November 2012 14:54:16(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Dodgy Geezer Go to Quoted Post
Quote:
Here, I think he is being rather kind about the degree of understanding of consumer needs. Most corporates sell a limited range of commodities or services, the marketing of which requires little consumer understanding.

Their business models usually involve exploiting semi-monopolistic power and the economies of scale, rigging the market and relying on a high churn rate amongst competitors, enabling replacements to be acquired as they lose a proportion of their own customers through shoddy service and products, and indifference to consumer needs...


There is some truth here, but there is also a whole facet of social behaviour which is not considered. Unsurprisingly, for it is missed out of nearly every critique of political structures which suggest improvements based on reason. This could be called, for want of a better word, 'inherent human self-interest'.

A business is often presented as 'wanting to make profit'. This is essential for long-term viability, of course, and when a business starts you will usually find single entrepreneurs running organisations where every aspect is dedicated to profitability.

Once a business has grown, however, it is run by a group of people with slightly different objectives. Profit is important, of course. But if, for instance, a company appoints an IT director to the board, it is now being partially run by a person to whom the continued growth of the IT division is important. If a course of action needs to be taken which is good for the company but bad for the IT division, you can expect the IT director to fight it....

Once a company has created an 'EU Regulation Compliance' division, or a 'Climate Change' division, do not expect that company to throw its hands up in glee at that prospect of being able to close these divisions down. Indeed, since the first people to become aware of this possibility are usually the divisions concerned, expect the initial corporate response to be distinctly negative....

You make a very important point. An understanding of this 'dynamic' should be spread as widely as possible.
J A King
#7 Posted : 21 November 2012 14:57:54(UTC)
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Mind you though, I do work in a rather large monopoly, and probably the most regulated industry there is. I tell you the regulations often do not go down well. Some are essential, others are just rather silly really.
richard
#8 Posted : 21 November 2012 16:24:56(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: J A King Go to Quoted Post
Mind you though, I do work in a rather large monopoly, and probably the most regulated industry there is. I tell you the regulations often do not go down well. Some are essential, others are just rather silly really.




Doubtless, you take the rough with the smooth. Tell any big corporate CEO that you are going to deregulate their industry and watch them go white with fear.
J A King
#9 Posted : 21 November 2012 16:31:32(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: richard Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: J A King Go to Quoted Post
Mind you though, I do work in a rather large monopoly, and probably the most regulated industry there is. I tell you the regulations often do not go down well. Some are essential, others are just rather silly really.




Doubtless, you take the rough with the smooth. Tell any big corporate CEO that you are going to deregulate their industry and watch them go white with fear.


Yeah, guess you would be right, mind I cant understand ours, he speaks with such a thick american accent, not many people do. we just sort of smile and nod a bit.
Dodgy Geezer
#10 Posted : 21 November 2012 17:27:01(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: John Archer Go to Quoted Post

You make a very important point. An understanding of this 'dynamic' should be spread as widely as possible.



It has been. I have a signed first edition of my Parkinson , but I find that modern management consultants have never come across the name...
nemesis
#11 Posted : 21 November 2012 17:32:55(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Dodgy Geezer Go to Quoted Post
Quote:
Here, I think he is being rather kind about the degree of understanding of consumer needs. Most corporates sell a limited range of commodities or services, the marketing of which requires little consumer understanding.

Their business models usually involve exploiting semi-monopolistic power and the economies of scale, rigging the market and relying on a high churn rate amongst competitors, enabling replacements to be acquired as they lose a proportion of their own customers through shoddy service and products, and indifference to consumer needs...


There is some truth here, but there is also a whole facet of social behaviour which is not considered. Unsurprisingly, for it is missed out of nearly every critique of political structures which suggest improvements based on reason. This could be called, for want of a better word, 'inherent human self-interest'.

A business is often presented as 'wanting to make profit'. This is essential for long-term viability, of course, and when a business starts you will usually find single entrepreneurs running organisations where every aspect is dedicated to profitability.

Once a business has grown, however, it is run by a group of people with slightly different objectives. Profit is important, of course. But if, for instance, a company appoints an IT director to the board, it is now being partially run by a person to whom the continued growth of the IT division is important. If a course of action needs to be taken which is good for the company but bad for the IT division, you can expect the IT director to fight it....

Once a company has created an 'EU Regulation Compliance' division, or a 'Climate Change' division, do not expect that company to throw its hands up in glee at that prospect of being able to close these divisions down. Indeed, since the first people to become aware of this possibility are usually the divisions concerned, expect the initial corporate response to be distinctly negative....


Indeed. I remember my Dad saying many years ago that Companies started to go wrong when Engineers on the Board were replaced with Accountants. - good with numbers and short term profits perhaps but with little vision of anything else.

vincent
#12 Posted : 21 November 2012 18:06:55(UTC)
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Two issues stem from this. Firstly, much of the financial regulation which is so disliked originates not from the EU but from the Basel Committee on Banking Supervision. The EU is just the middle-man, turning the "diqules" into working legislation. Leaving the EU will not make any significant difference to the flow of regulation.

Secondly, and related to the first, there is not necessarily any linkage between preserving the single market and membership of the EU. Through membership of the EEA, it is quite possible to be a full participant in the single market, without being an EU member. Further, using the Article 50 negotiation process, it is quite possible to leave the EU while preserving trading relationships and upholding the status quo.


One good reason to opt out the EU re a banking union is that joint acceptance of EU wide bank debt is another form of debt mutualisation (one that Germany is very careful to avoid)Banking is maybe a little different to other business sectors.UK bank customers, taxpayers and the UK banks have a common goal here....neither benefits from belonging to an EU banking union because of the all that debt mutualisation.Uniform Banking Regulations are one thing but banking unions are quite another.

Bankers at least should be on our side here.

richard
#13 Posted : 21 November 2012 20:10:35(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: vincent Go to Quoted Post
Quote:
Two issues stem from this. Firstly, much of the financial regulation which is so disliked originates not from the EU but from the Basel Committee on Banking Supervision. The EU is just the middle-man, turning the "diqules" into working legislation. Leaving the EU will not make any significant difference to the flow of regulation.

Secondly, and related to the first, there is not necessarily any linkage between preserving the single market and membership of the EU. Through membership of the EEA, it is quite possible to be a full participant in the single market, without being an EU member. Further, using the Article 50 negotiation process, it is quite possible to leave the EU while preserving trading relationships and upholding the status quo.


One good reason to opt out the EU re a banking union is that joint acceptance of EU wide bank debt is another form of debt mutualisation (one that Germany is very careful to avoid)Banking is maybe a little different to other business sectors.UK bank customers, taxpayers and the UK banks have a common goal here....neither benefits from belonging to an EU banking union because of the all that debt mutualisation.Uniform Banking Regulations are one thing but banking unions are quite another.

Bankers at least should be on our side here.



The mandatory banking union always was going to apply to the eurozone only, with opt-ins for the non-euros. Britain will be under no pressure to join.

vincent
#14 Posted : 22 November 2012 08:47:05(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: richard Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: vincent Go to Quoted Post
Quote:
Two issues stem from this. Firstly, much of the financial regulation which is so disliked originates not from the EU but from the Basel Committee on Banking Supervision. The EU is just the middle-man, turning the "diqules" into working legislation. Leaving the EU will not make any significant difference to the flow of regulation.

Secondly, and related to the first, there is not necessarily any linkage between preserving the single market and membership of the EU. Through membership of the EEA, it is quite possible to be a full participant in the single market, without being an EU member. Further, using the Article 50 negotiation process, it is quite possible to leave the EU while preserving trading relationships and upholding the status quo.


One good reason to opt out the EU re a banking union is that joint acceptance of EU wide bank debt is another form of debt mutualisation (one that Germany is very careful to avoid)Banking is maybe a little different to other business sectors.UK bank customers, taxpayers and the UK banks have a common goal here....neither benefits from belonging to an EU banking union because of the all that debt mutualisation.Uniform Banking Regulations are one thing but banking unions are quite another.

Bankers at least should be on our side here.



The mandatory banking union always was going to apply to the eurozone only, with opt-ins for the non-euros. Britain will be under no pressure to join.



Which does beg the question where are we going with EU membership...what is the point of us being in the EU?
richard
#15 Posted : 22 November 2012 09:29:27(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: vincent Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: richard Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: vincent Go to Quoted Post
Quote:
Two issues stem from this. Firstly, much of the financial regulation which is so disliked originates not from the EU but from the Basel Committee on Banking Supervision. The EU is just the middle-man, turning the "diqules" into working legislation. Leaving the EU will not make any significant difference to the flow of regulation.

Secondly, and related to the first, there is not necessarily any linkage between preserving the single market and membership of the EU. Through membership of the EEA, it is quite possible to be a full participant in the single market, without being an EU member. Further, using the Article 50 negotiation process, it is quite possible to leave the EU while preserving trading relationships and upholding the status quo.


One good reason to opt out the EU re a banking union is that joint acceptance of EU wide bank debt is another form of debt mutualisation (one that Germany is very careful to avoid)Banking is maybe a little different to other business sectors.UK bank customers, taxpayers and the UK banks have a common goal here....neither benefits from belonging to an EU banking union because of the all that debt mutualisation.Uniform Banking Regulations are one thing but banking unions are quite another.

Bankers at least should be on our side here.



The mandatory banking union always was going to apply to the eurozone only, with opt-ins for the non-euros. Britain will be under no pressure to join.



Which does beg the question where are we going with EU membership...what is the point of us being in the EU?



Without doubt, like two icebergs stricken with global warming, we are drifting apart. The "colleagues" are taking the project into the badlands of European integration and we cannot follow.

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