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Human rights: what a mess they're in

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richard		#1 Posted : 13 November 2012 11:43:09(UTC)
Rank: Administration Groups: Registered, Administrators Joined: 16/04/2012(UTC) Posts: 3,359 Location: Bradford Thanks: 113 times Was thanked: 342 time(s) in 284 post(s)		One cannot help but indulge in a wry smile as we observe the complete mess our government has got itself in. On the one hand, we have the Arthur Redfearn case, where one can only applaud the Human Rights Convention for the addition protection it gives. And then there is Abu Qatada, where British judges, calling in aid the Convention, are saying the Jordanian Government's word is not worth the paper it's written on and the man can't be deported to Jordan to face charges for terrorism. The deeper problem, though, arises from the tendency of successive governments to offshore their legislative responsibilities and their collective consciences, which means they have surrendered their freedom to make the rules – and have largely lost the capability so to do. View full article here
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1 user thanked richard for this useful post.		john in cheshire on 13/11/2012(UTC)
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stuart		#2 Posted : 13 November 2012 11:47:19(UTC)
Rank: Advanced Member Groups: Registered Joined: 17/07/2012(UTC) Posts: 155 Location: Andover Was thanked: 9 time(s) in 8 post(s)		Ah, but their contortions are a delight to behold.


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richard		#3 Posted : 13 November 2012 11:48:15(UTC)
Rank: Administration Groups: Registered, Administrators Joined: 16/04/2012(UTC) Posts: 3,359 Location: Bradford Thanks: 113 times Was thanked: 342 time(s) in 284 post(s)		Originally Posted by: stuart Ah, but their contortions are a delight to behold. "Hoist" and "petard" come to mind.
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vincent		#4 Posted : 13 November 2012 12:08:10(UTC)
Rank: Advanced Member Groups: Registered Joined: 17/07/2012(UTC) Posts: 981 Location: Sunderland Thanks: 86 times Was thanked: 32 time(s) in 29 post(s)		From your DT link Quote: The Conservative leader accused the Government of being "blind" to the Act's failings as it emerged that Home Office officials still regarded Italian-born Learco Chindamo as a threat to the public. If the Labour Government was "blind" what does he now consider his own government?Of course we could have done the proper thing in the first place and locked Chindamo up till he was no threat to society,as I see it would be no redeeming action just to export "the problem" to another country. As far as Qatada is concerned though id deport him no qualms, only as he faces incarceration abroad thus removing a threat to mankind, besides we become an asylum for all international crooks and terrorists on the run from allegedly less reputable legal systems. Edited by user 13 November 2012 12:09:24(UTC) \| Reason: Not specified


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john in cheshire		#5 Posted : 13 November 2012 12:19:58(UTC)
Rank: Advanced Member Groups: Registered Joined: 25/07/2012(UTC) Posts: 64 Location: cheshire Thanks: 97 times Was thanked: 3 time(s) in 2 post(s)		Originally Posted by: vincent From your DT link Quote: The Conservative leader accused the Government of being "blind" to the Act's failings as it emerged that Home Office officials still regarded Italian-born Learco Chindamo as a threat to the public. If the Labour Government was "blind" what does he now consider his own government?Of course we could have done the proper thing in the first place and locked Chindamo up till he was no threat to society,as I see it would be no redeeming action just to export "the problem" to another country. As far as Qatada is concerned though id deport him no qualms, only as he faces incarceration abroad thus removing a threat to mankind, besides we become an asylum for all international crooks and terrorists on the run from allegedly less reputable legal systems. Why can't we deport him to another country - one that our judges wouldn't object to, but one which would allow for him to be transferred to Jordan? Isn't this what Julian Assange is fearful of happening if he is extradited to Sweden? So, it's not unheard of and maybe could be a way around the awful Human Rights legislation that we have shackled to our national interests. Oh, and welcome back, Richard; I trust you're feeling fine this glorious autumn day.


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mmatis		#6 Posted : 13 November 2012 12:38:40(UTC)
Rank: Advanced Member Groups: Registered Joined: 17/07/2012(UTC) Posts: 462 Location: Cocoa, Florida Thanks: 92 times Was thanked: 36 time(s) in 27 post(s)		You say: Quote: "If Mr Cameron, Mrs May and Government ministers generally want to sleep at nights, they are going to have to relearn the capacity to govern." Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha! "Relearn"? Have you any evidence that they EVER learned such a thing in the first place?

1 user thanked mmatis for this useful post.		William Gruff on 13/11/2012(UTC)
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Dave Evans		#7 Posted : 13 November 2012 12:52:45(UTC)
Rank: Advanced Member Groups: Registered Joined: 17/07/2012(UTC) Posts: 366 Location: Peterlee Thanks: 15 times Was thanked: 24 time(s) in 22 post(s)		Originally Posted by: mmatis Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha! "Relearn"? Have you any evidence that they EVER learned such a thing in the first place? Good point.

1 user thanked Dave Evans for this useful post.		William Gruff on 13/11/2012(UTC)
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richard		#8 Posted : 13 November 2012 15:25:04(UTC)
Rank: Administration Groups: Registered, Administrators Joined: 16/04/2012(UTC) Posts: 3,359 Location: Bradford Thanks: 113 times Was thanked: 342 time(s) in 284 post(s)		Originally Posted by: Dave Evans Originally Posted by: mmatis Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha! "Relearn"? Have you any evidence that they EVER learned such a thing in the first place? Good point. I was thinking of "government" as a corporate entity, the one that once governed the Empire.
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mmatis		#9 Posted : 13 November 2012 15:51:34(UTC)
Rank: Advanced Member Groups: Registered Joined: 17/07/2012(UTC) Posts: 462 Location: Cocoa, Florida Thanks: 92 times Was thanked: 36 time(s) in 27 post(s)		Originally Posted by: richard Originally Posted by: Dave Evans Originally Posted by: mmatis Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha! "Relearn"? Have you any evidence that they EVER learned such a thing in the first place? Good point. I was thinking of "government" as a corporate entity, the one that once governed the Empire. That entity is dead, and LONG gone.


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richard		#10 Posted : 13 November 2012 16:51:03(UTC)
Rank: Administration Groups: Registered, Administrators Joined: 16/04/2012(UTC) Posts: 3,359 Location: Bradford Thanks: 113 times Was thanked: 342 time(s) in 284 post(s)		Originally Posted by: mmatis Originally Posted by: richard Originally Posted by: Dave Evans Originally Posted by: mmatis Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha! "Relearn"? Have you any evidence that they EVER learned such a thing in the first place? Good point. I was thinking of "government" as a corporate entity, the one that once governed the Empire. That entity is dead, and LONG gone. Trooo ... but there is always a hope of rebirth.
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mmatis		#11 Posted : 13 November 2012 17:18:33(UTC)
Rank: Advanced Member Groups: Registered Joined: 17/07/2012(UTC) Posts: 462 Location: Cocoa, Florida Thanks: 92 times Was thanked: 36 time(s) in 27 post(s)		Originally Posted by: richard Originally Posted by: mmatis Originally Posted by: richard Originally Posted by: Dave Evans Originally Posted by: mmatis Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha! "Relearn"? Have you any evidence that they EVER learned such a thing in the first place? Good point. I was thinking of "government" as a corporate entity, the one that once governed the Empire. That entity is dead, and LONG gone. Trooo ... but there is always a hope of rebirth. True as well, but there are a LARGE number of forces arrayed to abort that baby if it is ever even conceived...


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William Gruff		#12 Posted : 13 November 2012 20:15:09(UTC)
Rank: Advanced Member Groups: Registered Joined: 17/07/2012(UTC) Posts: 90 Location: Lytham St Annes Thanks: 7 times Was thanked: 14 time(s) in 11 post(s)		Originally Posted by: richard Originally Posted by: Dave Evans Originally Posted by: mmatis Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha! "Relearn"? Have you any evidence that they EVER learned such a thing in the first place? Good point. I was thinking of "government" as a corporate entity, the one that once governed the Empire. They made a bollox of that too.


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meltemian		#13 Posted : 13 November 2012 21:53:49(UTC)
Rank: Advanced Member Groups: Registered Joined: 17/07/2012(UTC) Posts: 81 Location: Corfu Thanks: 45 times Was thanked: 9 time(s) in 3 post(s)		Originally Posted by: richard Originally Posted by: mmatis Originally Posted by: richard Originally Posted by: Dave Evans Originally Posted by: mmatis Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha! "Relearn"? Have you any evidence that they EVER learned such a thing in the first place? Good point. I was thinking of "government" as a corporate entity, the one that once governed the Empire. That entity is dead, and LONG gone. Trooo ... but there is always a hope of rebirth. Good Heavens Richard! You're uncharacteristically optimistic, whatever the hospital did seems to have worked wonders.


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richard		#14 Posted : 13 November 2012 22:07:54(UTC)
Rank: Administration Groups: Registered, Administrators Joined: 16/04/2012(UTC) Posts: 3,359 Location: Bradford Thanks: 113 times Was thanked: 342 time(s) in 284 post(s)		Originally Posted by: meltemian Originally Posted by: richard Originally Posted by: mmatis Originally Posted by: richard Originally Posted by: Dave Evans Originally Posted by: mmatis Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha! "Relearn"? Have you any evidence that they EVER learned such a thing in the first place? Good point. I was thinking of "government" as a corporate entity, the one that once governed the Empire. That entity is dead, and LONG gone. Trooo ... but there is always a hope of rebirth. Good Heavens Richard! You're uncharacteristically optimistic, whatever the hospital did seems to have worked wonders. Yeah ... but on the other hand, we do have the Harrogate Agenda. If that doesn't make honest persons out of them, nothing will.
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thejones		#15 Posted : 13 November 2012 23:54:27(UTC)
Rank: Advanced Member Groups: Registered Joined: 20/07/2012(UTC) Posts: 41 Thanks: 4 times Was thanked: 2 time(s) in 2 post(s)		Quote: And while the Convention on Human Rights is not an EU instrument, it has been strongly argued that membership of the EU requires conformity with the Convention. That undoubtedly influences Mr Cameron to delay repealing the Human Rights Act, which called for when in opposition. Ahh....but he didn't give a cast-iron guarantee though did he?. Eh?....Eh?.... Nowwww...if he HAD........


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Bluemerle		#16 Posted : 14 November 2012 00:19:24(UTC)
Rank: Advanced Member Groups: Registered Joined: 17/07/2012(UTC) Posts: 31 Location: Dorset Was thanked: 3 time(s) in 3 post(s)		How come France can get rid of unwanted scum but we can't? I'm sick of this merry-go-round with these clerical criminals and it's about time our "so-called" Government started doing what they were elected to do. Just put him on a plane to Jordan, who cares if they torture him? He's made us the laughing stock of the world.


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silverfox		#17 Posted : 14 November 2012 20:18:42(UTC)
Rank: Advanced Member Groups: Registered Joined: 17/07/2012(UTC) Posts: 22 Location: Norfolk Thanks: 25 times		Originally Posted by: richard One cannot help but indulge in a wry smile as we observe the complete mess our government has got itself in. On the one hand, we have the Arthur Redfearn case, where one can only applaud the Human Rights Convention for the addition protection it gives. And then there is Abu Qatada, where British judges, calling in aid the Convention, are saying the Jordanian Government's word is not worth the paper it's written on and the man can't be deported to Jordan to face charges for terrorism. The deeper problem, though, arises from the tendency of successive governments to offshore their legislative responsibilities and their collective consciences, which means they have surrendered their freedom to make the rules – and have largely lost the capability so to do. View full article here The answer, therefore, is simple. If Mr Cameron, Mrs May and Government ministers generally want to sleep at nights, they are going to have to relearn the capacity to govern. As long as they accept the domination of a foreign power, as in Brussels, and foreign judges – whether in Strasborg or Luxemborg – they are going to have problems. It would be encouraging if the current crew of invertebrates could begin to develop some modicum of backbone, but that eventuality is extremely unlikely.


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