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richard
#1 Posted : 06 November 2012 01:11:05(UTC)
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One of the most egregious scams of modern times is carbon credits from HCF-23, the UN payments for which have enriched many an Indian and Chinese entrepreneur, who have been producing CFCs for the sole purpose of claiming payments for getting rid of the by-products.

Last year, almost to the day, after EU action to curtail this $6 billion scam, Chinese officials were threatening to vent these "powerful greenhouse gasses" direct to atmosphere.

Having had $1.3bn in tax revenues out of the scam, they were fearful about the loss of revenue. Historically, plants have been paid 70 times the cost of destroying HFC-23 gases, and the local governments have thus benefited hugely by being able to tax the generous profits.

View full article here

Ravenscar
#2 Posted : 06 November 2012 09:08:50(UTC)
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Yeah and guess what, the Ozone hole is still there too - emissions, extortion, blackmail, corruption and all for a false premise - a UN Chicken Little cause celebre I'll be bound - yes they made it all up with special thanks to the BBC and the Brit' Antarctic Survey.

DDT anyone?
Pluck
#3 Posted : 06 November 2012 10:25:24(UTC)
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In these times when our knowledge and understanding of Science has advanced so far, and access to Super Computers allows us to believe in our ability to model, to predict and even to control the weather, the thought that we should be able to control the outcomes of government and trade by micro-regulation is but a small intuitive step.

This thought is widely held and cherished by even otherwise intelligent men and women. For instance,
Associate Supreme Court Justice Stephen Breyer wrote:
Breyer told students there are six criteria judges use to assess a laws [sic] constitutionality: statutory language, constitutional history, constitutional tradition, precedent, purpose, and consequences.

"I tend,” Breyer said, "to emphasize purpose and consequences. Others emphasize language, a more literal reading of the text, history, and tradition – believing that those can help you reach a more objective answer.”
I flinched when I heard him say this. He seemed otherwise a reasonable and intelligent man.

I repeated this quote to one of my friends who is in law. He said, “Yes? What about it?”

“Well, is he smart enough to see all the consequences of his decisions?” Then I answered my own question, “No. No one is that smart. There are always unintended consequences.”

I don’t know that my friend was particularly impressed by my argument, but he didn’t have an answer.

Consider the design of control laws for a new rocket. A team of engineers will spend years analyzing the distribution of mass, the sloshing of fuel in the tanks, changes in the mass and in the mass distribution as fuel is spent, the limitations of the inertial guidance system, gyroscope drift, and the raw capabilities of the main rocket motors and the attitude control thrusters. They will run thousands of Monte-Carlo simulations on computers to ensure that control can be maintained through all planned maneuvers and under all anticipated atmospheric conditions such as temperature, wind speed and direction and atmospheric shear. They will then build and launch a full-scale rocket to validate the control laws.

Sounds complex? Perhaps. But the point here is that compared to the laws required to control human behavior, control laws for a rocket are simple and easily fashioned. More can be drawn from this analogy such as the need to avoid over-steering (creates instability) and under-steering (fails to establish control), but I am not really interested in going there.

My final point is that attempts at improvement often result in disaster. It could be that the attempt was ill-considered. It could also be that the consequences of the attempt were not only unforeseen, but unforeseeable. In the present example, the crafters of the HCF-23 sought to exert control over the polluters; instead they led the EU to fall into the polluters’ control.
I didn't fail the test, I just found 100 ways to do it wrong. Benjamin Franklin
meltemian
#4 Posted : 06 November 2012 10:36:23(UTC)
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To paraphrase, Never in the Field of Human Corruption has so much been paid by so many for so little result!! Not that we needed saving from the dreaded CO2 in the first place. I'm all for a clean environment but I've never been able to understand how the whole Carbon Credit farrago actually happened. Presumably once governments realised it could create whole new taxation possibilities they all jumped on the bandwagon, particularly as they could be perceived as being 'caring' and not just mercenary. Now it's just become ridiculous, the amount of money spent on curing an unproved, non-existant problem, forcing the power industry back to the dark ages with windmills for heavn's sake! We stopped using them when something better came along.
Dodgy Geezer
#5 Posted : 06 November 2012 10:43:29(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Ravenscar Go to Quoted Post
Yeah and guess what, the Ozone hole is still there too - emissions, extortion, blackmail, corruption and all for a false premise - a UN Chicken Little cause celebre I'll be bound - yes they made it all up with special thanks to the BBC and the Brit' Antarctic Survey.

DDT anyone?



Yes, as I recall CFCs are meant to damage the ozone layer rather than cause heat.

When we first found out about the ozone layer in the mid 1980s, it was diminishing rapidly in size. It now turns out that this is a cyclic process, and we happened to come upon it when it was shrinking, but 'environmentalism' was in the air at the time. And, purely on the strength of some unsupported model chemical calculations, CFC production was banned, and we were all forced to use the more dangerous butane as a propellant, or other less effective proprietary chemicals...

It is instructive to look at the practical reason why the ban was so rapidly agreed. DuPont were the holders of the CFC patent, and making good money from it. There had been activist calls since the late 1970s to ban CFCs - these were ignored by DuPont and the politicians, since there was no reason to ban it. But the DuPont patent ran out at the end of the 1980s and DuPont had been unable to develop a better chemical to take its place. By 1990 DuPont manufacture of Freon would be undercut by Eastern manufacturers who would need no licence, and a major profit centre would be lost.

So in 1988 DuPont suddenly threw its lobbying weight behind the activists, and argued for a ban on manufacturing the chemical. With that support, the ban suddenly became practical, and the Montreal Protocol was signed. It now turns out that Freon does not have the effect on the ozone layer that was thought, and the ozone hole continues to grow and shrink cyclically.

But in the meantime, DuPont competitors were unable to use the patent-free Freon, and DuPont continued to make a fat profit selling replacement chemicals which were not as effective, but which had the benefit of still being under DuPont patent control...

Isn't big business exciting?
Dodgy Geezer
#6 Posted : 06 November 2012 11:05:07(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Pluck Go to Quoted Post


...Consider the design of control laws for a new rocket. A team of engineers will spend years analyzing the distribution of mass, the sloshing of fuel in the tanks, changes in the mass and in the mass distribution as fuel is spent, ...



The real point is that the 'laws' of aerodynamics and reaction are dispassionate and static. If I place a flat plate in a slipstream it WILL produce a drag which can be calculated, and shed vortices which can be modeled.

If I enact a new law, however, the humans to whom it applies will not respond mechanically. Instead, they will use their brains to see if this change in their environment can be used to their favour. That is what humans do - they react with their environment to improve their condition. Perhaps a new law can be used to provide them with extra cash, or to disadvantage a competitor - anything is possible.

And those drafting and enacting the law do not consider this aspect at all - they usually have a tunnel vision approach which assumes that the law will only be used in the intended way for its stated purpose...
richard
#7 Posted : 06 November 2012 11:35:33(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Pluck Go to Quoted Post
In these times when our knowledge and understanding of Science has advanced so far, and access to Super Computers allows us to believe in our ability to model, to predict and even to control the weather, the thought that we should be able to control the outcomes of government and trade by micro-regulation is but a small intuitive step.

This thought is widely held and cherished by even otherwise intelligent men and women. For instance,
Associate Supreme Court Justice Stephen Breyer wrote:
Breyer told students there are six criteria judges use to assess a laws [sic] constitutionality: statutory language, constitutional history, constitutional tradition, precedent, purpose, and consequences.

"I tend,” Breyer said, "to emphasize purpose and consequences. Others emphasize language, a more literal reading of the text, history, and tradition – believing that those can help you reach a more objective answer.”
I flinched when I heard him say this. He seemed otherwise a reasonable and intelligent man.

I repeated this quote to one of my friends who is in law. He said, “Yes? What about it?”

“Well, is he smart enough to see all the consequences of his decisions?” Then I answered my own question, “No. No one is that smart. There are always unintended consequences.”

I don’t know that my friend was particularly impressed by my argument, but he didn’t have an answer.

Consider the design of control laws for a new rocket. A team of engineers will spend years analyzing the distribution of mass, the sloshing of fuel in the tanks, changes in the mass and in the mass distribution as fuel is spent, the limitations of the inertial guidance system, gyroscope drift, and the raw capabilities of the main rocket motors and the attitude control thrusters. They will run thousands of Monte-Carlo simulations on computers to ensure that control can be maintained through all planned maneuvers and under all anticipated atmospheric conditions such as temperature, wind speed and direction and atmospheric shear. They will then build and launch a full-scale rocket to validate the control laws.

Sounds complex? Perhaps. But the point here is that compared to the laws required to control human behavior, control laws for a rocket are simple and easily fashioned. More can be drawn from this analogy such as the need to avoid over-steering (creates instability) and under-steering (fails to establish control), but I am not really interested in going there.

My final point is that attempts at improvement often result in disaster. It could be that the attempt was ill-considered. It could also be that the consequences of the attempt were not only unforeseen, but unforeseeable. In the present example, the crafters of the HCF-23 sought to exert control over the polluters; instead they led the EU to fall into the polluters’ control.



It is pretty damn obvious that, if you incentivise the destruction of HFC-23 to the extent that you are paying 70-times the cost of destruction, then people are going to make sure they have plenty to destroy.
Pluck
#8 Posted : 06 November 2012 12:18:32(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: richard Go to Quoted Post
It is pretty damn obvious that, if you incentivise the destruction of HFC-23 to the extent that you are paying 70-times the cost of destruction, then people are going to make sure they have plenty to destroy.
Are the crafters of the HFC-23 regulations culpable of negligence in that they knew or should have known of the consequences of their regulations? Are they saboteurs intent on destruction? Or are they innocents running amok, incapable of understanding what they do, maddened by the possession of a modicum of authority?
Adam Smith wrote:
Virtue is more to be feared than vice, because its excesses are not subject to the regulation of conscience.
I don’t know in this case, but the crafting and enforcement of regulations often seems done by clumsy hands, and a lack of attention to the lessons of history, tradition and precedent seem to be a root cause.

Even if this is a case of foxes in the hen-house, who let the foxes in and why did the regulations contain no enforcement provisions for curbing abuse? Whatever the motivations and capabilities of the crafters of the HFC-23 regulations, ultimately, the problem seems rooted in one or more systemic failures.

I didn't fail the test, I just found 100 ways to do it wrong. Benjamin Franklin
Dodgy Geezer
#9 Posted : 06 November 2012 12:54:41(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Pluck Go to Quoted Post


Are the crafters of the HFC-23 regulations culpable of negligence in that they knew or should have known of the consequences of their regulations? Are they saboteurs intent on destruction? Or are they innocents running amok, incapable of understanding what they do, maddened by the possession of a modicum of authority?



I suspect the latter. They are almost certainly not recruited because of their experience in administration of complex organisations. They are drawn from an activist bubble where any consequences of their actions do not affect them, so they build pretty rainbow-coloured regulatory castles in the air and they are preyed upon by the more malicious entrepreneurs and lobbyists, who keep telling them that everything is marvelous while perverting the system in order to profit from it. Eventually, they get eaten...

A bit like the Eloi and the Morlocks...


Originally Posted by: richard Go to Quoted Post


It is pretty damn obvious that, if you incentivise the destruction of HFC-23 to the extent that you are paying 70-times the cost of destruction, then people are going to make sure they have plenty to destroy.



Indeed. And it is equally obvious that if you create a vast profit-centre and call it Defence, people are going to make very sure that they will always have a lot to defend themselves against. Current Western foreign policy in a nutshell. Where is Eisenhower when you need him....?

mmatis
#10 Posted : 06 November 2012 13:59:27(UTC)
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Based on the fact that much of the Chinese "steel" used to secure loans for their corporations does not exist and may never even have been manufactured in the first place, how confident are you that there actually IS that much CFCs to be "destroyed?" Not that the Indians would even consider doing something similar, of course. After all, they have the honorable Ramesh Pachouri as their national example to inspire them...
comet
#11 Posted : 06 November 2012 14:15:28(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Pluck Go to Quoted Post
In these times when our knowledge and understanding of Science has advanced so far, and access to Super Computers allows us to believe in our ability to model, to predict and even to control the weather, the thought that we should be able to control the outcomes of government and trade by micro-regulation is but a small intuitive step.

This thought is widely held and cherished by even otherwise intelligent men and women.


It's something which pre-dates super computers. It harks back to the idea of a fully planned and controlled economy, Soviet Five Year Plans etc. Well, it stands to reason that a scientifically planned economy must be better and more efficient than a haphazard system of capitalism, doesn't it?

It's an idea that keeps popping up in one form or another. The reason it never worked before was that it was never done properly, this time it will be different......................

Ravenscar
#12 Posted : 06 November 2012 14:50:27(UTC)
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comet sayeth............

Quote:
It's something which pre-dates super computers. It harks back to the idea of a fully planned and controlled economy, Soviet Five Year Plans etc. Well, it stands to reason that a scientifically planned economy must be better and more efficient than a haphazard system of capitalism, doesn't it?

It's an idea that keeps popping up in one form or another. The reason it never worked before was that it was never done properly, this time it will be different......................


When all of a sudden up popped Michael Heseltine - it's all in the planning lads - "I told you so!"


@Dodgy Geezer

Quote:

Yes, as I recall CFCs are meant to damage the ozone layer rather than cause heat.


Oh yes indeedy, what a stitch-up.

Edited by user 06 November 2012 14:53:05(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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