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richard
#1 Posted : 26 October 2012 00:53:43(UTC)
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No one in their right mind would countenance setting up controls for a serious zoonotic disease without also including in the measures a specific programme for eliminating disease reservoirs in the wildlife population.

However, when - as is the case – we are talking about badgers, sense goes out of the window. Emotion, ignorance and sheer blind prejudice take over. Add to that a bunch of windy, ill-informed MPs, and you then have a debate where the vote goes against the government by 147 votes to 28.

That, of course, puts newly-appointed environment Owen Paterson rather on the spot. He actually has no choice. Bovine TB is a serious public health threat, the disease in epidemic in cattle and in badgers, and effective control measures must be taken or we risk having international markets closed to our beef and dairy products – at a cost of about £2 billion a year in lost exports.

View full article here
Niall Warry
#2 Posted : 26 October 2012 09:25:33(UTC)
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I'm genuinely confused about the cull and simply don't know enough to make a definitive comment.

What I can say is that I have NO problem with the whole principle of culling which is absolutely essential, on our relatively small island, amongst animals with no natural predators.

Deer, foxes, badgers, mink (Oh and too add some humans!) all need to to be kept in check or they run riot!

However I don't see how culling badgers would lead to guaranteeing to eliminate all the ones with TB?

Inoculating the badgers, I believe the favoured route of the bunny huggers, would also not guarantee to catch every one with the disease.

Finally do you know Richard why we cannot just inoculate the cows as they only seem to talk about this option by including the badgers as well??

Does the EU allow us to inoculate cows?

Edited by user 26 October 2012 10:33:41(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Ravenscar
#3 Posted : 26 October 2012 09:32:15(UTC)
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You see, for far too long the paradox of the urban eco-warrior, suburban armchair 'experts', grey haired very ex pop stars have dominated all debate, why does no one argue the case for our farmers?


Leaving aside the badgers and important though it is, Paterson is in the sights of the green bunny huggers for other reasons, the polar bear huggers are the same ilk - Paterson is very anti greenie hysterics pertaining to climate catastrophe mania.

What is needed, is a programme on badgers informing folk about just what nasty little buggers badgers can be, because if Wind in the Willows is your starting point - then, there is no arguing the case. There has to be compromise and ultimately some sort of thinning out - for badgers sakes and for the farmers of the nation - who do a rather important job.
richard
#4 Posted : 26 October 2012 09:43:57(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Niall Warry Go to Quoted Post
I'm genuinely confused about the cull and simply don't know enough to make a definitive comment.

What I can say is that I have NO problem with the whole principle of culling which is absolutely essential, on our relatively small island, amongst animals with no natural predators.

Deer, foxes, badgers, mink (Oh and to add some humans!) all need to to be kept in check or they run riot.

However I don't see how culling badgers who lead to guaranteeing to eliminate all the ones with TB?

Inoculating the badgers, I believe the favoured route of the bunny huggers, would also not guarantee to catch every one with the disease.

Finally do you know Richard why we cannot just inoculate the cows as they only seem to talk about this option by including the badgersas well??

Does the EU allow us to inoculate cows?




There is as yet no effective vaccine - and none on the horizon for the foreseeable future. Those that are available have limited efficacy (less than 50 percent), which means that they are usable only as a means of limiting shed of infection in affected animals, but not as a primary means of control.

Under current international agreements, you cannot export from vaccinated herds, as there is no ready means of distinguishing between animals that have been innoculated and those which have been exposed to the disease.

richard
#5 Posted : 26 October 2012 09:47:00(UTC)
Richard

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Originally Posted by: Ravenscar Go to Quoted Post
You see, for far too long the paradox of the urban eco-warrior, suburban armchair 'experts', grey haired very ex pop stars have dominated all debate, why does no one argue the case for our farmers?


Leaving aside the badgers and important though it is, Paterson is in the sights of the green bunny huggers for other reasons, the polar bear huggers are the same ilk - Paterson is very anti greenie hysterics pertaining to climate catastrophe mania.

What is needed, is a programme on badgers informing folk about just what nasty little buggers badgers can be, because if Wind in the Willows is your starting point - then, there is no arguing the case. There has to be compromise and ultimately some sort of thinning out - for badgers sakes and for the farmers of the nation - who do a rather important job.




Like the Communists did before them, the greenies have infiltrated the ministries of state, which means that the subversion comes from within. Thus, the programme was mishandled from the very start - deliberately so. First, then, there is the battle to regain control of Defra.

In2minds
#6 Posted : 26 October 2012 10:29:23(UTC)
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Richard wrote -

Quote:
to say nothing of the very real likelihood of the disease passing to humans.


I'd like to read more on this, it's never given space in the MSM.
Niall Warry
#7 Posted : 26 October 2012 10:36:23(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: richard Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Niall Warry Go to Quoted Post
I'm genuinely confused about the cull and simply don't know enough to make a definitive comment.

What I can say is that I have NO problem with the whole principle of culling which is absolutely essential, on our relatively small island, amongst animals with no natural predators.

Deer, foxes, badgers, mink (Oh and to add some humans!) all need to to be kept in check or they run riot.

However I don't see how culling badgers who lead to guaranteeing to eliminate all the ones with TB?

Inoculating the badgers, I believe the favoured route of the bunny huggers, would also not guarantee to catch every one with the disease.

Finally do you know Richard why we cannot just inoculate the cows as they only seem to talk about this option by including the badgersas well??

Does the EU allow us to inoculate cows?




There is as yet no effective vaccine - and none on the horizon for the foreseeable future. Those that are available have limited efficacy (less than 50 percent), which means that they are usable only as a means of limiting shed of infection in affected animals, but not as a primary means of control.

Under current international agreements, you cannot export from vaccinated herds, as there is no ready means of distinguishing between animals that have been innoculated and those which have been exposed to the disease.



Do EU badgers not get TB??

richard
#8 Posted : 26 October 2012 11:20:08(UTC)
Richard

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Originally Posted by: Niall Warry Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: richard Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Niall Warry Go to Quoted Post
I'm genuinely confused about the cull and simply don't know enough to make a definitive comment.

What I can say is that I have NO problem with the whole principle of culling which is absolutely essential, on our relatively small island, amongst animals with no natural predators.

Deer, foxes, badgers, mink (Oh and to add some humans!) all need to to be kept in check or they run riot.

However I don't see how culling badgers who lead to guaranteeing to eliminate all the ones with TB?

Inoculating the badgers, I believe the favoured route of the bunny huggers, would also not guarantee to catch every one with the disease.

Finally do you know Richard why we cannot just inoculate the cows as they only seem to talk about this option by including the badgersas well??

Does the EU allow us to inoculate cows?




There is as yet no effective vaccine - and none on the horizon for the foreseeable future. Those that are available have limited efficacy (less than 50 percent), which means that they are usable only as a means of limiting shed of infection in affected animals, but not as a primary means of control.

Under current international agreements, you cannot export from vaccinated herds, as there is no ready means of distinguishing between animals that have been innoculated and those which have been exposed to the disease.



Do EU badgers not get TB??





Relatively, we have a high (and concentrated) cattle population, and the highest density of badgers in Europe. The two are not unrelated. There is a symbiotic relationship between the cattle and the badgers. Take away the cattle and the badgers disappear. And that is the perversity of it all ... without cattle farming, there would not be the badgers in the first place.

D W Buxton
#9 Posted : 26 October 2012 12:59:30(UTC)
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This would be the same DEFRA that killed thousands of fit animals illegally during the foot and mouth crisis. Oh yes, when someone noticed a Bill was rushed through to make it legal....that's right, a Bill "rushed" through parliament.
mmatis
#10 Posted : 26 October 2012 13:58:55(UTC)
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So have you heard who's gonna be on Big Brother tonight?
qmill
#11 Posted : 26 October 2012 14:58:38(UTC)
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Under the old policy which stopped in the 80's a high point was reached in 1986 when only 638 cattle were slaughtered for bovine TB. Up to then badgers were culled in a clean ring policy until the badgers were clean. This first shifted to only contiguous culls then the culling was abandoned all together. Attached is a link to the excellent bovine tb blog.
http://bovinetb.blogspot...tells-1000-words_20.html
F U Fed Up
#12 Posted : 26 October 2012 19:15:40(UTC)
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Badgers have no natural predators, as a result of not culling they are breeding like mad and because of the sheer numbers are killing off large amounts of other species, like hedghogs, grouind nesting song birds and ground living bees, in the areas they live in.

The badgers round here are a bloody nuisance to everyone, quite apart from the TB problem.

Charles Moore recently wrote a great piece on the problem.

As far as I'm concerned they need shooting and if some swampies get in the way, shoot them as well.

mmatis
#13 Posted : 26 October 2012 19:23:23(UTC)
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This topic clearly screams out for a "Badger, badger, mushroom" link:
http://www.albinoblacksheep.com/flash/badgers
richard
#14 Posted : 27 October 2012 00:10:02(UTC)
Richard

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Originally Posted by: qmill Go to Quoted Post
Under the old policy which stopped in the 80's a high point was reached in 1986 when only 638 cattle were slaughtered for bovine TB. Up to then badgers were culled in a clean ring policy until the badgers were clean. This first shifted to only contiguous culls then the culling was abandoned all together. Attached is a link to the excellent bovine tb blog.
http://bovinetb.blogspot...tells-1000-words_20.html





Welcome to the forum ... You may be interested to know that BovineTB is our sister blog, which we co-founded. Gald you approve of it!!!!

richard
#15 Posted : 27 October 2012 00:10:55(UTC)
Richard

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Originally Posted by: In2minds Go to Quoted Post
Richard wrote -

Quote:
to say nothing of the very real likelihood of the disease passing to humans.


I'd like to read more on this, it's never given space in the MSM.




http://www.dailymail.co....tracts-disease-pets.html


Dave Evans
#16 Posted : 27 October 2012 14:34:17(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Ravenscar Go to Quoted Post
You see, for far too long the paradox of the urban eco-warrior, suburban armchair 'experts', grey haired very ex pop stars have dominated all debate, why does no one argue the case for our farmers?


Leaving aside the badgers and important though it is, Paterson is in the sights of the green bunny huggers for other reasons, the polar bear huggers are the same ilk - Paterson is very anti greenie hysterics pertaining to climate catastrophe mania.

What is needed, is a programme on badgers informing folk about just what nasty little buggers badgers can be, because if Wind in the Willows is your starting point - then, there is no arguing the case. There has to be compromise and ultimately some sort of thinning out - for badgers sakes and for the farmers of the nation - who do a rather important job.


I think the Badger/Polar bear huggers could be cured but it takes a very severe form of medicine. Put one of these armchair eco-warriors in the same room as one of their cause-celebre. I'm sure they would revise their opinions quite quickly. (Particularly if they are foolish enough to try to actually hug either species.)
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